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1995-04-27
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=========================================================================
(C) 1994 by Atari Corporation, GEnie, and the Atari Roundtables. May
be reprinted only with this notice intact. The Atari Roundtables on
GEnie are *official* information services of Atari Corporation. To sign
up for GEnie service, call (with modem) 800-638-8369. Upon connection
type HHH (RETURN after that). Wait for the U#= prompt.Type XTX99437,GENIE
and press [RETURN]. The system will prompt you for your information.
==========================================================================
************
Topic 4 Wed Aug 17, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:35 EDT
Sub: NeoDesk 4 - The Ultimate Desktop
Topic to discuss NeoDesk 4, the lastest version of the original desktop
replacement for Atari computers.
201 message(s) total.
************
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 1 Wed Aug 17, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:36 EDT
I have just posted a demo version of NeoDesk 4 (NEO4DEMO.LZH), and a press
release describing the program (NEO4PRES.TXT).
Upgrades and other backorders are starting to ship now and, due to the volume,
may take 2-3 weeks to complete.
For Immediate Release 8/17/94
---------------------
Gribnif Software is proud to announce the completion of the most
recent upgrade to the original desktop replacement for Atari computers,
NeoDesk 4. The wait is finally over.
NeoDesk has hundreds of features, so here are just some of the more
popular ones in the new version:
o A completely new "look and feel", including 3D windows, enhanced dialog
handling, and the ability to have multiple dialogs open at once. All
this works on any Atari computer with any ROM version.
o Multicolored icons - each icon can have up to 16 colors, and can even
appear completely different when selected.
o Icon Editor - This multiple window Icon Editor lets you edit and modify
custom icons for any file or folder. The editor can read many popular
icon formats, including ones from other platforms!
o Any Degas, Neochrome, Tiny, IMG, or BMP picture can be viewed (by
double-clicking on it) or can be used as the desktop background.
Desktop pictures can even be "tiled".
o Each directory window has its own menu bar, making it much easier to
find frequently used options.
o Each window has its own "parent directory", Show Info, and trashcan
icons.
o Items can be selected from the keyboard, including a search mode.
o File Groups - Now you can arrange commonly used programs and data files
together in the same window, even when they are physically contained in
drastically different locations! Their names can even be changed,
using up to 20 characters.
o Font Control - NeoDesk 4 gives you the power to redefine what fonts
and point sizes are used within its windows, and even for the text
underneath icons.
o Disk copy, file operations, and floppy disk formatting can all occur
"in the background", allowing you to use your computer for other tasks
at the same time.
o Search Files - Easily search your system for one or more files, based
on their name, size, date, or attributes. A file group can even be
created containing the results. This is just one example of the
powerful Filtering options which are also available for file
operations.
o Compatible with all Atari computers, in all resolutions, including
third-party graphics cards.
NeoDesk 4 is available for just $69.95 plus $4.15 S&H. Owners of
NeoDesk 3 can upgrade to the new version for $25 + $3 S&H by sending us
both original NeoDesk 3 master disks. Backorders are being filled right
now, and may take 2-3 weeks to complete.
(Shipping amounts listed apply to orders shipped within the USA only.
Please contact us for other areas.)
Gribnif Software
P.O. Box 779
Northampton, MA 01061-0779
USA
Voice: (413) 247-5620
Fax: (413) 247-5622
Dan Wilga
Gribnif Software
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 2 Wed Aug 17, 1994
J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:18 EDT
Dan,
This sounds great. You guys are going to win me over. As a matter
of fact eventhough I know I'll be getting Neodesk 4 soon, I have to
go and D/L the demo cause Al has just been teasing us for too long!
John B.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 3 Wed Aug 17, 1994
R.WATSON15 [Wayne Watson] at 20:43 EDT
Dan,
Congratulations! Sounds nice!!
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 4 Wed Aug 17, 1994
VORTEXT at 22:10 PDT
Glad to hear it Dan. Now I can start checking my mailbox. I'll keep looking
for the demo and check it out ahead of time. Thanks, been waiting on this one!
Daniel
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 5 Wed Aug 17, 1994
C.MASON10 [Mad Dog] at 22:26 PDT
Dan,
I've been patiently waiting since the STAR show in Sacramento; mail mine
yesterday!
Mad Dog
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 6 Thu Aug 18, 1994
M.POCHE [Mick] at 00:45 CDT
Yea for Dan and NeoDesk 4!!
Now I have to skip a meal or two so that I can get that upgrade. (not that
it's expensive.... I'm just that broke!)
- Mick
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 7 Thu Aug 18, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:57 EDT
Due to a minor omission from the archive <sheepish grin> the demo isn't out
yet. I'm resending it today as NEO4DEM2.LZH.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 8 Thu Aug 18, 1994
J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 20:53 EDT
Neodesk 4 looks really good. Even for non Geneva users I think it's
awsome. If you are into desktops this one puts the Atari desktop to
shame.
Dan,
I'll leave you Email but in case you see this first. If you
haven't sent my order yet, I'd like the extra Icon disk!
John B.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 9 Thu Aug 18, 1994
N.DAVIS1 [Neil] at 21:10 EDT
I forget, when I bought early Geneva last summer wasn't I also buying
Neodesk 4 whenever it came out? Or do I need to send my Neo 3 disks in for
the update to Neodesk 4?
Also, any possibility of an update to the developer's kit? It'd be neat
to use Neo4's background file-copying in other programs, tho' that doesn't
seem necessary with geneva anyhow.
Thanks, Neil
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 10 Fri Aug 19, 1994
AEO.1 [Albert Dayes] at 01:12 EDT
Dan,
Sounds great. I guess we can finally see what Al has been talking about for
such a long time. Thanks for all of your hard work to complete it.
-- Albert
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 11 Fri Aug 19, 1994
EXPLORER.4 [Ron - ABUG ] at 02:31 EDT
Dan-
I downloaded NEO4DEM2.LZH. Very nice demo. I have never seen or used any of
the previous NeoDesk versions. The features disabled are not critical to the
basic run of the product. However, I noticed an anomaly that (I hope) is just
due to it being a DEMO: I loaded a desktop background IMG. Looks great. I
run a program and then return to the desktop and the IMG is not being
displayed on the desktop. I must do a SELECT to re-load the picture.
I am using an Atari 1040 STf w/4 Megs Xtra-RAM Deluxe. TOS 1.04, GEMDOS 0.15,
and GEM 1.4.
Ron - ABUG
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 12 Fri Aug 19, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 10:15 EDT
Ron,
Hm. It's not supposed to work that way. I'll take a look and see if maybe
there is something wrong.
Neil,
According to our invoices, all you got was the Geneva beta. Please give me a
call or send private email if you have any information to the contrary.
Thanks!
I have added a way to do background copying (the old method still works,
BTW) but I'll have to find the time to write it up, along with some of the
other new things.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 13 Fri Aug 19, 1994
M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 08:03 PDT
I just tried out the Neo 4 demo and noticed that if you have the vertical
scroll bar of windows configured, via Geneva, for a small width, less than
standard, then the 3 window icons at the bottom left of a Neo 4 window will
appear scrunched up. Just increase your scroll bar width and you'll see them
fine. A very impressive demo, Dan.
Ron,
The background IMG works fine after running prgs for me, tiled or
centered, it's always there when I return to Neo 4. But I did notice that I
lost the Neo 4 background fill after running a few prgs. The background became
white. This was when using a small IMG in the center of the screen.
- Mel
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 14 Fri Aug 19, 1994
J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 18:35 EDT
Neodesk 4 cetrainly makes for a gorgeous desktop. The colored Icons
are really nice and all the dialog boxes have that NeXt look about
them.
> I just tried out the Neo 4 demo and noticed that if you have the
vertical
>scroll bar of windows configured, via Geneva, for a small width, less than
>standard, then the 3 window icons at the bottom left of a Neo 4 window will
>appear scrunched up. Just increase your scroll bar width and you'll see
them
>fine. A very impressive demo, Dan.
That is what I had to do but I was a little dissapointed in having
to do that. One of the cosmetic features I love about Geneva is being
able to narrow the scroll bar. Always disliked the wide bar.
Unfortunatly, the squished bottom left hand buttons look even worse so
I had to widen the bar back to 10 points.
Dan,
Those buttons are directly related to the scroll bar or do you
think their might be a workaround in the future? You spoiled us
with the narrow bar feature now you done took it away! ;-)
John B.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 15 Fri Aug 19, 1994
D.ATKINSON3 [Damon] at 18:29 CDT
Dan,
I just got through playing with your demo - very nice! Got 2 questions
though, does the real version require a reboot to change resolutions? Also,
is there anyway to make the backround of text at the bottom of an Icon,
transparent? (I dislike those white rectangles obscuring the backround pic.)
Damon
p.s. These questions are your favorite part of releasing a new program,
right? <G>
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 16 Sat Aug 20, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 01:47 EDT
Ron,
The regular NeoDesk 4 application does not lose the desktop background or the
desktop picture when an app is run. The demo should not do this either, so I
am at a loss as to why it would happen in your setup.
Mel,
When you use a picture of any kind as the desktop pic, the fill is white,
intentionally.
John B.,
The three icons at the lower left are a bit small in my setup, too, but the
only one I regularly use is the leftmost one, which allows copying or moving
files to the next level up in the dirrectory tree. The other two are
duplicated by hotkeys (control-delete for deletion, for example), and that's
easier for me, at least.
Damon,
The background for the icon text is always white. If you have a white
background, you will have transparent label backgrounds. If you have a desktop
picture centered on the screen, and your icons are at the sides, the label
backgrounds will be invisible because that part of the screen is white.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 17 Sat Aug 20, 1994
J.YOUNG57 [AtariFan] at 00:12 PDT
Hi,
I'm considering upgrading my 3.0 to 4.0, but I did notice what looks like a
feature of some sort when I tried out the
demo. I use overscan and 3.0 has worked well but the demo of 4 scrunches all
the menus and dialog text as if the resource file was not working quite right.
this occurred when using the 9 point text. When using the 8 point text of the
window menus, everything is correct....Will this be so in the commerical
release? I always use overscan and won't use any product that doesn't support
it...thanks..
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 18 Sat Aug 20, 1994
M.POCHE [Mick] at 03:24 CDT
I too have been playing around with the demo, and it's everything I expected
it to be and more!
I can already see how NeoDesk 4 will make doing a lot of things easier and
faster.
Let's see..... I got paid today, so I guess I'm a-orderin' soon!
- Mick
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 19 Sat Aug 20, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:36 EDT
J.Young,
Did you get the first version of the demo (NEO4DEMO.LZH) from another
network, or the second one (NEO4DEM2.LZH) here on GEnie? If you got NEO4DEM2,
then that is indeed the way things are going to be at least in the first
version of NeoDesk 4. Some changes were made in the second version which may
have affected the problem you are noticing.
If this is not the problem, then I'm not really sure what is. What version
of TOS are you using? Do you have Geneva?
Damon,
If you do not have Geneva or MultiTOS, then yes, you will have to reboot in
order to change resolutions. This is because of the way Atari's AES works.
Nope, icons always have a white block around the text. Certainly on the
desktop, I can't see why you'd want it otherwise.
John B.,
Well, it's definitely not going to be in this version, but I suppose I could
force the icon boxes to be wider without affecting the rest of the window.
Ron & Mel,
There is indeed a problem with the demo version losing the IMG background,
and I know why, but it's not there in the final version.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 20 Sat Aug 20, 1994
D.ATKINSON3 [Damon] at 17:25 CDT
Al,
>The background for the icon text is always white. If you...........
>backgrounds will be invisible because that part of the screen is white.
Not if my picture covers the entire screen. I was just curious about the
omission of this ability since it is selectable in other areas such as dialogs
and window elements. It is just a cosmetic annoyance to me that the GEM
desktop shares. If I was to do a work around, I would probably line my Icons
along the bottom of the screen and use 'snap to grid' to force the text
completely off the screen.
Damon
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 21 Sat Aug 20, 1994
D.ATKINSON3 [Damon] at 18:09 CDT
Dan,
> Nope, icons always have a white block around the text.
>Certainly on the desktop, I can't see why you'd want it otherwise.
For the same reason I don't like it anywhere else, of course. :-) Just a
cosmetic preference, that I take advantage of in dialogs and windows.
For the desktop, picture this: a desktop icon - no text, just a white block
under the icon. You can see now, I know you can :-) This is why I don't
like it, because I prefer no text at all, "especially" on the desktop.
Damon
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 22 Sat Aug 20, 1994
M.OSTRANDER1 [Mike O] at 18:41 CDT
Rats. Since NeoDesk4 started shipping Wednesday, and it's now Saturday, I was
hoping (slight chance that it was) for a nice package in the mail today.
Maybe Monday....
Not that I'm anxious, or anything, after months of hintlets from Al and seeing
Neo4 running at TAF in June, but, well, YES, I AM anxious.
I need some more ammunition to explain to my son why I'm not defecting to the
world of 90-MHz Pentiums with him.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 23 Sun Aug 21, 1994
EXPLORER.4 [Ron - ABUG ] at 00:25 EDT
DAN> Hm. It's not supposed to work that way. I'll take a look and
DAN> see if maybe there is something wrong.
MEL> The background IMG works fine after running prgs for me,
MEL> tiled or centered, it's always there when I return to Neo 4.
MEL> But I did notice that I lost the Neo 4 background fill after
MEL> running a few prgs. The background became white. This was when
MEL> using a small IMG in the center of the screen.
Dan, it seems to work that way with PI2, IMG, and BMP. After executing any
type of program (ttp, tos, or prg) I return to the desktop (NeoDesk 4) to a
blank background. I have to click on the DESKTOP option and do the SELECT
(even though the file name is already selected). Do you need more specifics?
JAR10.PRG is the last to load in the auto folder and NeoLoad.prg is run as an
AUTO INSTALL program (started by SuperBoot 8.1). . .
Ron - ABUG
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 24 Sun Aug 21, 1994
D.HADLAND at 09:09 PDT
I noticed that the first window open in the demo will not switch to bottom of
other windows, by using the icon in the top right corner. The other wi windows
open after the first one do seem to work. I hope this is in only the demo.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 25 Sun Aug 21, 1994
J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 10:10 PDT
I've been playing around with the demo, in anticipation of receiving the full
version, and I've run into a difficulty and could use some help.
I remember I ran into a similar glitch when I first got Geneva and was
switching back and forth from Aladdin and WordPerfect. I somehow handled the
problem then but it's back again now that I'm using Neo4 as the shell (versus
Neo3) with Geneva.
I'm running WordPerfect on a TT with color monitor. The problem is that I
can't retain my colors in WordPerfect: when I switch from WordPerfect into
Aladdin or back into Neo4, and then go back into WordPerfect, the color of my
type and of the cursor has been changed. I like to use black for the type and
cursor, and Geneva or Neo is changing the color back to red and green.
I think that the way WordPerfect works is that it saves its color scheme
automatically into its SYS.WP file when you exit WordPerfect.
This problem doesn't occur when I use Neo4 without Geneva.
Also, the difficulty doesn't occur using Neo3 with Geneva. Any ideas on how I
can keep my "color integrity" while in WordPerfect?
- Jason Saffer
Hercules, California
Sunday, August 21, 1994 10:10 am
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 26 Sun Aug 21, 1994
M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 23:05 PDT
Someone asked about the trash can icon in each window. I noticed in the
demo that you have to select a file before the trash icon becomes visible.
It'll show up down in the lower left hand corner of the desktop window.
- Mel
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 27 Mon Aug 22, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:18 EDT
Damon,
All Atari desktops have that property (icon labels against a background). In
the TOS 2.x and higher desktops, the label background is the color of the
icon. Yech!
Jason,
The demo is not the real thing, so don't judge it in the same way you'd judge
the actual app.
BTW, you can restore your desktop colors at any time by pressing control-shift-
R.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 28 Mon Aug 22, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 16:15 EDT
Al,
Control-Shift-R doesn't apply to the demo, though, since it doesn't load INF
files <smile>. The best way is to use Control-Shift-Alt keypad *, since that
just changes the colors.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 29 Mon Aug 22, 1994
D.ATKINSON3 [Damon] at 18:59 CDT
Al,
>All Atari desktops have that property (icon labels against a background). In
>the TOS 2.x and higher desktops, the label background is the color of the
>icon. Yech!
That doesn't mean I have to like it. :) However, on tos 4.04 at least (my
next one down is 1.6), if you decide to not have text at all under the icon,
there will be no 'mask' either, leaving the space completely transparent. I'd
prefer an option to not have a mask, text or not. I don't think the idea is
strange either, especially considering you can toggle this on window bars and
dialog boxes. I never use a 'mask' on text if I can get around it.
Damon
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 30 Mon Aug 22, 1994
B.AEIN [B Man] at 23:38 EDT
Dan,
Does Neo4 have to reboot when you want to exit in the real version?
How many Icons can we have now?
How many macros?
Can we redefine the control-delete combo?
Does N4 run faster than N3?
What about supporting Kobold, it seems to be rather solid. U.K. mags really
love it. It also bypass's Data Diet for copys and moves making it that much
faster than regular desktop file maintence.
If you are familiar with Hisoft basic 2.1, there is a feature in there to tile
the open windows. You have the option of tiling horizonailly, verticaly, or
in quarters. I would really like to see this in N4 if it is not already in
there. It would be great to link those functions to a macro so one could
instantly reorganize the windows on screen with no effort.
Thanks Bman
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 31 Mon Aug 22, 1994
R.BODEN [Rick] at 22:37 MDT
Does NeoDesk 4 take up about 150k more memory than Neo3? The demo seems to on
my system.
Rick
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 32 Tue Aug 23, 1994
EXPLORER.4 [Ron - ABUG ] at 00:57 EDT
I am running NeoDesk 4 in ST Color mode. The icons tend to be longated (I
suppose designed for 640X400 instead of 640x200) are there any MEDIUM RES
ICONS available that don't look streached?
Ron - ABUG
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 33 Mon Aug 22, 1994
J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 23:57 PDT
Al, I'll wait (with anticipation) for the full version before I freak out
about the color difficulties while using Neo and Geneva. I KNOW I ran into
this problem before in Geneva and I don't remember what I did to correct it,
so that when it returned with the Neo 4 demo, my heart sank!
I don't know if having the ability to restore the desktop colors with control-
shift-R, in the full version, will address my symptom or not, since the color
change occurs in WordPerfect and turns my typeface red. I can manually change
the colors to black typeface using the Control Panel but that's ridiculous to
have to do each time I go into WordPerfect. So, I'll wait for the full version
and then try and see if there's still a problem.
- Jason Saffer
Hercules, California
Monday, August 22, 1994 10:12 pm
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 34 Tue Aug 23, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:35 EDT
Mel,
Thanks for pointing out where the trashcan icon is. The real thing operates
the same way. The icons at the lower left of each window are SmartIcons, and
change their appearance and function appropriately, depending on what is going
on.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 35 Tue Aug 23, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:25 EDT
Dan,
Ah, I see. But control-shift-alt-keypad * just brought up my SnapShot DA, so
I'm going to have to do some remapping. (Control-shift-alt brings it up, so
the asterisk is given a cold shoulder.)
Damon,
I see your point. The option would be nice to have.
Bman,
I exit Neo 4 without the need to reboot.
I have 250 icons at this time, and ran during testing with 1200 at one point.
I believe the macro limit is about 32K, total size, any number of macros.
N4 is much faster than N3.
I don't see why Kobold's ability to bypass Data Diet matters, since you can
set up Data Diet to turn itself on and off based on what app is running.
You'll even be able to do that in a multitasking environment, thanks to a
little gem Keith Gerdes is working on.
You can instantly reorganize windows with a macro already.
Ron,
I have created some non-elongated versions of a few of the ST Medium default
Neo 4 icons, and will upload them shortly. Users can patch their own, too; the
icon editor is very easy to use.
Jason,
Just to repeat, the problem is in WordPerfect, not in Geneva or Neo 4. I
suggest you run WordPerfect in monochrome to get around it.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 36 Tue Aug 23, 1994
M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 08:14 PDT
Y'know, what I'd really love to see is Data Diet being able to use Neo
4's clipboard as a work directory. Sure would be cool with its auto
resizeability and speed. FONTLOAD.PRG being able to use Speedo fonts and
somehow scale them down to the 8x8 and 6x6 sizes would be cool too. Just a
thought. Thanks!
- Mel
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 37 Tue Aug 23, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:36 EDT
Ron,
We tried to edit the default icons that come with NeoDesk 4 (the ones in the
demo) so that they look allright in medium rez. In fact, the guy who did it
only owns a color monitor at home.
If they still seem stretched to you, you can always edit them more in the
icon editor in the final version. Even if you don't feel confident drawing
icons, just making them shorter is pretty easy.
Rick B,
The amount of memory NeoDesk 4 takes really depends a lot on how you have it
configured, and whether or not you are using Geneva. If you take a look at the
"Memory..." dialog, you can see what I mean. It changes as you open windows
and dialogs.
Bman,
No, the real version doesn't reboot when you quit, just the demo.
There are almost no limits anymore. You can have any number of icons, and up
to 32K of macros.
Control-Delete: Right now, not without a resource file editor. But the
provision is there.
It's faster in many respects, yes. I suppose it all depends on what
specifically you mean.
Kobold may be better supported in a future version. There's nothing
preventing you from using it now, you just have to use its interface for the
copying.
There's never been much call for tiling windows. I'll consider it, though.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 38 Tue Aug 23, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:34 EDT
Mel,
You sure don't want much do you? <smile>
The might be able to be done, depending on how Data Diet does things, but it
wouldn't really be optimal because of the way things in NeoDesk are set up
now. The second would take mucho code to do in the converter. You can have
OUTLINE.PRG generate the bitmap fonts, though, y'know...
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 39 Tue Aug 23, 1994
M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 13:24 PDT
Dan,
Regarding using the Clipboard as a Data Diet work dir: Just wishing. :-
) I think that if the code for the clipboard could be turned into a ramdisk
prg (or even a .npg), that would be a neat little deal since auto-resizeable
ramdisks are pretty rare. The only one I've seen is Mortimer's.
That comment about using OUTLINE.PRG from Speedo to generate bitmaps from
Speedo fonts caught my eye, though. As far as I know Outline can't actually
save out a bitmap representation of a Speedo font to disk for use in other
GDOS prgs, but I wish it could. But if this is possible, somebody please let
me know. I did fire up Fontload to see if it has support for Speedo, but it
requires one to load a GDOS .fnt file. Thanks!
- Mel
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 40 Tue Aug 23, 1994
B.AEIN [B Man] at 22:21 EDT
Is there any prg that will take a color pic file and make a 16 color icon for
use in Neo4? I have seen this on my friends mac.
Al,
I wanted Neo4 to support the automated control of Data Diet for copys and
moves, I hate not remembering to manualy turn DD off.
Is there a slow down when you use 1200 icons? I assume that it eats a large
chunk of ram to have that many.
ST Report says that Kobold comes with a prg that will intercept gemdos disk
calls and route them to Kobolds faster routines. The only problem that I have
encountered with Kobold is that Data Rescue or other live file undeleters cant
undo a Kobold delete, YET.
How does the window reorganization work?
Thanks
Bman
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 41 Tue Aug 23, 1994
EXPLORER.4 [Ron - ABUG ] at 22:30 EDT
Dan-
I ran SeBra (mono emulator) and NeoDesk looks great (and so do my BMP's I
copied from my Windows machine . . . The MS Windows 'paper' looks pretty silly
on an Atari desktop. <g>
Maybe I am wrong, but the ND4 ICONS look great at 640x400 but look quite
streached at 640x200. Is your friend with the color monitor running the old
ST MED RES?
Al-
I will look forward to your Medium ICON rendition.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 42 Wed Aug 24, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 10:31 EDT
Ron,
He's got an SC1224.
I think I know the reason, now. Some of them were specifically modified for
a 4-color icon and these don't look stretched. You probably mean the ones
which are using the 2-color icon in ST Medium. Some of those might look
stretched, though we tried to make as good a compromise as we could between
appearance and NIC file size. I've also looked at the icons, and most of them
aren't too bad. Perhaps in the future we'll include more 4-color versions of
the icons.
Bman,
The icon editor will read any of the bitmap formats NeoDesk recognizes and
allow you to create an icon. It only reads the upper left corner, so you have
to make sure the bitmap is saved with the area you want in that location.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 43 Wed Aug 24, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:38 EDT
Mel,
Hey! Data Diet users would like that idea!
Dan,
A minor bug, or feature <g>: When I have the windows all set for icon display,
but first open a group window set for text display, all the desktop windows I
open subsequently use text display.
Mel,
What's Mortimer's (ramdisk)? Does it auto-size for use with DD? Run on the TT?
Make breakfast? "-)
B Man,
The number of icons used doesn't slow things down except when loading NeoDesk
4. With a LOT of icons, loading may take 30 seconds to a minute. With 200 to
300 icons, it may take 5 to 10 seconds. Your mileage may vary (and the
CaTTamaran is a nice help!).
Keith G. is working on a way of handling what you want in Data Diet. That's
all I can say.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 44 Wed Aug 24, 1994
M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 17:16 PDT
Al,
Mortimer is an older German commercial tsr all-in-one Harlekin-like
utility that pops up its interface at any time (even in TOS apps or when a
modal dialog is up) when you invoke its hotkey, although it doesn't do nearly
as much as Harlekin. You can snap screens, read files, there's a magnifier,
spooler, screensaver, some other stuff and the ramdisk. It auto resizes to
whatever size is needed as you add files and shrinks back down to the minimum
size when you delete the files, just like the Neo clipboard. But I didn't
like the overhead of having to use up ram for all the other functions of
Mortimer I wasn't using, it didn't seem to recognize my TOS 1.6 according to
its install msg, although it would install and I had some conflicts with it
and other prgs. But the ramdisk part was sure cool with DD. I don't know if
it runs on a TT. The original version came out around the time the TOS 1.6
roms were getting burned, so who knows if it works on the TT, but there is a
Mortimer Deluxe that came out later that should be TT ready. I think Mortimer
is handled by the ST Club in the UK now.
An auto resizing ramdisk would be a neat deal for ST users and if reset
proof, I think it would become the one and only ramdisk for all ST'ers. Who
would need anything else? A ramdisk that only uses as much ram as it needs
and gives back the ram when files are removed, cool! With multitasking being
all the rage these days, users are becoming more frugal with their ram and
such a utility would fit in nicely. I don't think such a prg would be enough
for a commercial package, but as shareware it would probably become the de
facto standard for ramdisks and dominate over all others.
- Mel
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 45 Wed Aug 24, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 20:05 CDT
COOL! I'm home on vacation all week, and what nice little surprise do I get
in today's mail but NEO4!!
I haven't seen the demo, so this'll be a total surprise -- one I' really
looking forward to.
Thanks, Dan!
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 46 Thu Aug 25, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:28 EDT
Gerry,
I aim to please. <smile>
Al,
That's not really a bug, so much as it is a matter of preference. In
general, whenever you open a new window it inherits the attributes of the
topmost window. In this case, the topmost one happens to be a group.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 47 Thu Aug 25, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 18:03 EDT
Dan,
I won't bug you about Neo4... I ordered it 'kinda late, BUT... can I presume
the ICON disk will be available at the CAF 94?
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 48 Thu Aug 25, 1994
K.GERDES [TraceTech] at 18:49 CDT
>Bman wrote,
>I wanted Neo4 to support the automated control of Data Diet for copys
>and moves, I hate not remembering to manualy turn DD off.
>Al replied,
>Keith G. is working on a way of handling what you want in Data Diet.
Actually Bman is still lobbying for the addition of a 'Data Diet On/Off'
option in NeoDesk's "file copy/move" dialog.
- Keith
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 49 Thu Aug 25, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 20:28 EDT
Mel,
Thanks for the description. There's an autosizing RD in my collection, but it
wasn't very compatible with current OS code, as far as I recall.
Y'now what I always liked? MaxiDisk, which compressed files as they were
copied to the RD; you could get 720K on a 500K ramdisk, easily.
It even worked on the TT last time I tried it.
Dan,
A feature, not a bug. :-) But it's a feature I find less than appealing. Any
hope of getting windows to behave the way they are listed in the INF file?
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 50 Thu Aug 25, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:02 CDT
Dan --
> I aim to please. <smile>
You did! I've got Neo4 running now (and, ok, I haven't hardly cracked the
manual yet). It looks absolutely wonderful. Really a nice job.
I especially like the drop-down menus in the disk windows -- nice touch.
But... didja HAVE to use that urp-green color for the box that shows when it's
loading?? :-)
Looking forward to hitting the manual hard.
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 51 Fri Aug 26, 1994
LYRE at 14:01 EDT
Dan,
I've been reading uptopic and notice that Bman put in a request for tiled
windows. Add me to the list for that enhancement. Now if only it would work in
programs that don't save your window layout.
Lyre
1:15 pm, August 26, 1994
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 52 Fri Aug 26, 1994
M.MOTOGAWA [MEL] at 13:51 PDT
Al,
Say, if that auto resizing ramdisk is pd/shareware, please u/l it. Thanks!
- Mel
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 53 Fri Aug 26, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 20:19 EDT
Gerry,
The color of that box is usually grey on a 16-color display, not green. Your
color palette must be modified.
Al,
Maybe. I'll consider it.
Keith,
Because of the added complexity of background file copying, it became
prohibitive both time- and code-wise for me to add a DD On/Off switch.
Matt,
Yes, we'll have icon disks there for sale.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 54 Fri Aug 26, 1994
J.TURCOTTE [JARL T.] at 22:43 MDT
Gribnif,
Just got it and love it, no problems....ah no BIG problems. When I load in an
icon from NEO3 and try to convert to 4 or 16 colors I get a mess. Is there a
way to fix this without having to load in a screen snapper and creating a 16
or 4 color IMG to load in?
Jarl is out of here...
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 55 Fri Aug 26, 1994
J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 23:47 PDT
>Jason,
>
>Just to repeat, the problem is in WordPerfect, not in Geneva or Neo 4. I
>suggest you run WordPerfect in monochrome to get around it.
>
>Al
>----------
Al, how do I run WordPerfect in monochrome on a color monitor. I'm curious.
But, even if I can, that's not really an ideal solution for me. I like the
colors on the screen when I'm in WordPerfect.
I've just received the full version of Neo4 and I'm discovering interesting
features. When I first run WordPerfect and then use the menu or the keyboard
to switch back to Neo4 (this is with Geneva), I consistently get two bombs!
Even more interesting, when I run WordPerfect and then use the menu or
keyboard to go back into Geneva Manager, I don't get bombs at all -- but I do
sometimes get put back into Neo4 without bombs. Yes, that's right, I select
Geneva and go back into Neo4 (this happens often, but not always). And THEN,
after having used Geneva rather than Neo, I can THEN switch back and forth
between WordPerfect and Neo without bombs.
I have no idea why I'm bombing in the first place or why I'm getting into Neo
with a Geneva selection, or why that all then clears up the bombing problem.
Can anyone else reproduce the symptom of bombing when first switching from
WordPerfect into Neo4? This is occurring for me on a TT with color monitor.
Also, when I exit Aladdin, and get the menu bar without words, the Readme
suggestion of alt/tab doesn't do anything.
(sigh)
- Jason Saffer
Hercules, California
Friday, August 26, 1994 11:09 pm
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 56 Sat Aug 27, 1994
B.MENAGH at 13:34 EDT
I have just received and installed Neo4. Thanks for the continued support for
this fine product. I'll read some of the other messgaes to sort ou to sort
out some of my beginning questions which are as follows: 1. There was no
registration form in the package, will I send inn
a letter or leave Email? 2. I notice that NEO4 seems to use more
memory. Some of my regular
proghrams will not run - posting a memory error. I've set the
limit of memory that NEO4 uses to 500K since the 250K in the
setting seemed to small. I tried no picture and the limit amount
of memory available to NEO4.
3. I also tried to run Geneva. First installing NEO4, then reinstalled
Geneva. Geneva tells me it wants NEO3.08 (I think that's it.)
4. Perhaps because of the greater memory use, NEO4 seems to take a
noticeably longer timer to reload into memory.
Comments and suuggestions appreciated.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 57 Sat Aug 27, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 12:36 CDT
Dan --
> The color of that box is usually grey on a 16-color display, not green.
Your
>color palette must be modified.
That may well be, but in medium res (which is 4-color, no?) it's Mr. Yuk
Green. And it's the last box to show up, appearing right after the Geneva box
(which, on my display, is red). No big deal.
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 58 Sat Aug 27, 1994
W.ORTIZ [Will] at 23:08 EDT
Hey Guys!!
I got NeoDesk 4 today!!!! I installed it and I'm checking it out now. It
was worth the wait.
Great Job GRIBNIF!!!
Will
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 59 Sun Aug 28, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 12:28 EDT
Mel,
I'll hunt that RD down. Busy lately, after Dan roped me into being a stand-up
comic in Bridgeport. :-)
Jason,
Um, you pretend green is gray? I'd look for a used b/w monitor, for one thing.
:-)
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 60 Sun Aug 28, 1994
J.SAFFER [JASON SAFFER] at 16:18 PDT
I'd love someone to check if the symptom I reported with Neo 4 and Geneva is
being repeated on other systems. When I run WordPerfect and then try to switch
back to Neo using either a keypress or the menu bar, I consistently get 2
bombs. This did not occur with the Neo 4 demo with Geneva, only with the full
version. I had been having success switching back into Geneva Manager and then
into Neo, but even that route is now resulting in 2 bombs (when I click on
Geneva in the menu bar). Unless I can get this straightened out, Neo 4 won't
work for me!!
- Jason Saffer
Hercules, California
Sunday, August 28, 1994 4:14 pm
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 61 Sun Aug 28, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:32 CDT
Hey, all --
For some reason I can't get a "load a new configuration" macro to run. Neo
keeps saying, "Can't run that macro because desktop has changed." Here's what
I'm doing:
From my primary desktop, I "Begin Macro." I open my Neo4 folder, click once
on my secondary desktop .INF file, then drop down the OPTIONS menu, click on
"Load Configuration," and the secondary desktop comes up. I then drop down
OPTIONS and END MACRO, and give it a name.
That's it. Regardless of whether I'm on my primary or secondary desktop, I
keep getting that "Can't run that macro" error message.
Where am I going wrong?
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 62 Mon Aug 29, 1994
C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 02:00 PDT
Dan,
A few problems with an otherwise EXCELLENT upgrade:
1. How do I load my ND3 macros and desktop notes into ND4? ND4 tells me
that they are not valid. Also, while my .INF files will load, the icon
positions are TOTALLY screwed up - some icons are even layered on top of each
other and appear to be selected.
2. The way the icon filename background overlap each other in Groups make
Group icon placement almost impossible! I think this is an EXCELLENT argument
for transparent icon masks as suggested by Damon. MS Windows' icons have
transparent filename backgrounds within windows, but colored backgrounds on
the "desktop".
3. Exiting many of the SETTINGS dialogs does not completely redraw the
screen. I use Warp 9, but have this problem even if W9 is not loaded. The
number of times I have to use SHIFT-ALT-UNDO is extremely irritating.
I'm using a MegaSTE, 4 megs, mono monitor, and the following:
Auto Programs (no sort):
BOOTKILL.PRG
16MHZ_C .PRG
DMIRROR .PRG
UNSQUISH.PRG
SUPERBT .PRG
JAR20 .PRG
GENEVA .PRG
WARP9_ST.PRG
FONTLOAD.PRG
NEOLOAD .PRG
TIMECHK .PRG
CLOCKSET.PRG
DRVIN .PRG
SCC .PRG
OBURST .PRG
SPDGDOS5.PRG
NEWBOB .PRG
CSHOW63 .PRG
SUPERBTA.PRG
Accessories:
TASKMAN .ACC
EDHAK .ACC
XCONTROL.ACC
WARP9_CP.ACC
Thanks for any suggestions and help! -- Chuck --
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 63 Mon Aug 29, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:15 EDT
Chuck,
The old macros and notes cannot be loaded into the new version. Too many
changes occurred to the new file formats to make a conversion possible. Did
you use the INF loader to load your old INF files? If you're loading the icons
from an INF file that was saved in a rez which is different than the rez you
are in, you may get some of the effects you notice. You should still be able
to move the icons to where you want them, though. If all else fails, send me
your INF file by private email and I'll have a look.
I'm surprised you're having problems with dialogs not redrawing, I've never
seen that. If you are using Warp 9, you do have to make sure that its "Zoom
boxes" option is on if you also have Geneva. You can turn the "Grow/shrink
boxes" option off in Geneva instead.
Gerry,
You shouldn't be recording the part of opening the folder. Just start macro
recording, select the INF file, load it, and end the recording.
B.Menagh,
It's not necessary to register with us again, since you got it directly from
us, in this case.
If you use the "Limit to" option, then that should be fine. Are you sure you
aren't using the "Take xxx Kb at all times option"? Aside from that, about the
only other thing you can do to decrease the amount of memory used is to
decrease the number of custom icons you have. The new format has to take up
twice as much memory as the old one, due to the separate selected images.
What do you mean by "tells me it wants NEO3.08"? I will admit that the
INSTALL.PRG asks for NeoDesk 3, but you can just as easily point it to the
NEODESK.EXE which is part of NeoDesk 4. Is this where your confusion is? If
not, please be more specific about the error message.
The executable is somewhat larger in NeoDesk 4 (though it's actually a
little smaller if you have Geneva, since some code doesn't get loaded) and
this can increase the load time.
Jason,
Argh. I can't get my copy of WP to run, period. I'm going to have to
reinstall it from the master disks.
From the sounds of it, the menu bar thing when exiting Aladdin is still the
same Geneva problem that's been there. You have to avoid switching between two
single-tasking apps.
Jarl,
That's truly odd, but there does definitely seem to be something wrong with
that. I know it used to work. I'm afraid all I can do is say that it's
something that needs to be fixed, and I'll probably be doing a patch program
before too much longer anyway.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 64 Mon Aug 29, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 14:25 EDT
Gerry,
I get that message, too, when I try to load a new set of macros.
Dan,
My brother got his Neo 4 from Toad and reports that the icon editor crashes
when he does a Show Information on an icon. I confirmed this on my systems.
(I'd never done that; sorry for missing it!)
Chuck,
You can arrange the icons in a group window any way you want. Have you done
this?
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 65 Mon Aug 29, 1994
M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 22:45 EDT
Dan,
I received my copy of NeoDesk 4 in the mail last Tuesday and feel that it
was well worth the wait. I especially like the addition of Groups. In Neo3,
I created the rough equivalent of "groups" by creating 6 distinct NEODESKH.INF
files, one for each of my "groups", and then used macros to load the desired
.INF file in. With Neo4, I can get by with only one NEODESKH.INF file which
saves me lots of time when I need to make a configuration change. One thing
that I would like to see added in some future release, though, is the ability
to assign a single alphabetic letter, such as already exists for desktop
icons, to individual items within a Group so that a program can be lauched
from the keyboard without the use of the mouse.
I would like to report 2 minor problems that I've discovered with Neo4.
The first involves Geneva's SETMOUSE.PRG. Recently, I began using NVDI v2.5
(instead of Warp9) and, based on some advice that Al Fasoldt gave me on how to
load Mouse-Ka-Mania II shapes in an NVDI environment, I had been using the
GEM.CNF file to run SETMOUSE.PRG (Charles Johnson's own autoloader,
AUTOMOUS.PRG, quit working when I migrated from Warp 9 to NVDI) which, in
turn, read in my desired mouse shapes from the SETMOUSE.DAT file. When I
installed Neo4, this operation of running SETMOUSE from the GEM.CNF file
constantly forced my system to bomb during boot up without any apparent
explanation (I can supply you with the register readings if you like) even on
a bare system with just JAR, GENEVA, and NEODESK4. I fixed my problem by no
longer running SETMOUSE from the GEM.CNF file, but rather loading it after
NeoDesk 4 has initialized as a NeoDesk 4 auto-execute program.
A second minor problem that I've run into is that under Neo3, I had
created an Alt-Esc macro to close my Neo3 windows just like in Geneva. Now in
Neo4, the Alt-Esc keystroke has been assigned to closing folders (although the
manual appendix on keystrokes indicates that Geneva/Neo4 users will get Close
Window with Alt-Esc which isn't so) so I'm having to relearn ^W for closing
windows <sigh!>.
I realize the above are nits, but I wanted to pass them along to you
anyway. The bottom line is that NeoDesk 4 has, thus far, been rock solid for
me and I'm really pleased that I am finally getting the opportunity to use it.
Thank you for bringing this product to the Atari market!
... Mike Squire
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 66 Mon Aug 29, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 22:17 CDT
Dan --
> The old macros and notes cannot be loaded into the new version. Too many
No one should know better than you... but... somehow I got my old macros
loaded in just fine. Can't recall how, tho.
>you use the INF loader to load your old INF files? If you're loading the
icons
>from an INF file that was saved in a rez which is different than the rez you
>are in, you may get some of the effects you notice. You should still be able
FYI, I had the same problem as Chuck with old desktops. Stuff was all over
the place, and where I once had 8 hard drive icons, only 3 would show up. It
was easy enough, though, to recreate the desktops.
> I'm surprised you're having problems with dialogs not redrawing, I've
never
>seen that. If you are using Warp 9, you do have to make sure that its "Zoom
>boxes" option is on if you also have Geneva. You can turn the "Grow/shrink
And I had that same problem, too. I got it a LOT on the dialog at END MACRO.
However, I know it's not Neo because I loaded that into the system alone.
Didn't know the trick about the "Zoom Boxes" in Warp 9. I'll try that.
> You shouldn't be recording the part of opening the folder. Just start
macro
>recording, select the INF file, load it, and end the recording.
I've gotta be doing something very stupid, but I can't get it to work. Again,
I open the Neo4 folder THEN start the macro recording. Click once on
SYQUEST.INF (my desktop for when the SyQ is connected to the system), click on
LOAD CONFIGURATION. The desktop changes to my SyQ desktop, and I click on END
MACRO. I assign it a key. Then I save it as the default NEODESKM.MAC
Then I reload my default desktop, NEODESKM.INF. and press F2. I get the error
dialog, "Can't run that macro. The desktop has changed." In fact, I get that
same macro even when the SyQ desktop is still showing.
Where am I taking a left when I should be going straight?
Thanks for all the time, Dan.
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 67 Mon Aug 29, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 23:24 CDT
Jeff Wiles said in the Neo3 topic:
>Someone said they had problems with using their notes file. All I did was
put
>my 3.04 notes file in the Neo4 folder and they DID appear on my Neo4
desktop.
>Don't know why but it worked for me.
YES! That's how I did it, too!!
Also, Dan, did you ever tell us what we were doing wrong in the "convert 2
color to 4 color icons" thing? Whenever I have a 2 color icon (my old Neo 3
icons, for instance) that I either convert or cut and paste, the result is an
unusuable mess.
Again and again, thanks...
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 68 Tue Aug 30, 1994
L.TRAPANI [Lou @ ATP] at 01:43 EDT
I got my Neodesk 4 upgrade today. Fantastic!!! Need I say more?
I too am a little troubled about not being able to convert my old NeoDesk 3
icons into 4 or 16 colors without re-drawing them from scratch. Everytime I
try to convert them to 4 or 16 colors in the icon editor, I get scrambled eggs
<grin>. Well for now, I will start redrawing them again...
Thanks for making a great product even better.
-= Lou T. =-
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 69 Mon Aug 29, 1994
C.BINCKLEY [-- Chuck --] at 23:31 PDT
Dan,
Yes, I used the INF loader, and the resolution is the same. Also, this is
the first I've heard about having to leave "zoom boxes" on in Warp 9 with
Geneva. Did I miss that in the manual? In any case, I'll give it a shot, and
let you know if it helps.
I'll try converting an INF file again and see if I still have the problem.
Thanks!
Al,
Yes, that's where the problem lies - if I put two icons right next to
each other (or even within the width of two icons) - lined up side by side -
their filename backgrounds overlap, with the filename of the icon placed first
being obscured by the filename background of the icon placed second. On my
mono monitor (ST high res), the width of the background is about two inches.
I hope this makes sense - if you need any more info, let me know. As it
is, I really don't have the screen real estate necessary to use groups at all -
four icons take up about eight square inches (unless I don't mind the
filenames being unreadable)!
By the way, the icons also can't be placed in the group window any closer
to the left edge of the window than the end of their filename backgrounds,
wasting even more screen space.
Any help or suggestions I can get with this would be greatly appreciated -
the group thing was one of the features I most eagerly anticipated in ND4!
-- Chuck --
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 70 Tue Aug 30, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 07:42 EDT
Gerry -
Just a guess, but prior to ending the macro, did you close all open windows?
I think I had the same problem once or twice because I had left a drive window
open when ending a macro, then when I ran it from a desktop without that
window being open... it was a 'changed' desktop.
I could be wrong, it's been a while since I've seen the problem. I'm sure
someone will give you the correct info, if I am.
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 71 Tue Aug 30, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:23 EDT
Chuck,
I'm considering going to two-line names for items in groups, so this would
help the overlap problem.
At this point I've gotten a number of comments about not being able to
convert the icons from an older INF file, so I'm assuming there must be
something I missed.
Gerry,
Well, I'm not sure why, but I can't get a macro to work that way either. It
won't work for icons on the desktop, either, so I'm afraid I don't have a
workaround for you right now.
The 2- to 4/16-color conversion doesn't work right, either. I didn't try
going the other way lately, but considering the number of times I did so when
creating the icon disk I'd be very surprised if that was broken too.
Mike,
I'm really surprised about the problem with SETMOUSE, but I'll try it and
see if I cn reproduce it.
Alt-Esc simply produces the equivalent of clicking on the Close Window
gadget. It's intercepted by Geneva and turned into the AES message that tells
NeoDesk the close box was "clicked" on. There's not really a good way I can
think of to satisfy what you want (which is to treat Alt-Esc like ^W), and
maybe now you see why.
Al,
I'll fix that. I never thought to try that either <smile>.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 72 Tue Aug 30, 1994
D.HADLAND at 21:08 PDT
I have a Mega STE with 4 Meg Ram and boot using XBOOT with NEO4 auto load- ing
from XBOOT. Here is a list of problems I am Having.
1. File Copy over existing files causes System crash Neo3 Doesn't.
2. When creating a group file and saved. Opening group window in text
mode is OK. Changing to Icon mode I loose some of my icons.
3. Setting windows to sort by type. Save Desktop. Next time loading into
Neo4, the sort is set back to sort by name.
4. Neo Control panel is has a few of its onw problems.
A:Radio Boxes in the wrong place "Repeat Key"
B:Bell, Mouse,Palette,Floppy, and Ram Icons all have the wrong
messages attached to them. (click on bell and get mouse edit)
C:Click on Ram Chip also freezes system.
5. I have had one program so far that bombs in Neo4. 4_7_11.PRG is a
Solitare game. It crashes with two bombs. It runs good in Neo3.
None of these problems are serious and so far I like the new
features of Neo4. Nice Job :-)
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 73 Wed Aug 31, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 00:19 CDT
Dan --
> Well, I'm not sure why, but I can't get a macro to work that way either.
It
>won't work for icons on the desktop, either, so I'm afraid I don't have a
>workaround for you right now.
Thanks a bundle for looking into it. I'm glad to know it wasn't just me being
dense (as usual).
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 74 Wed Aug 31, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 04:55 EDT
Mike Squire,
Alt-Esc works in Neo 4 and in Geneva to back out of the current folder. I have
the keypad "-" key assigned, via Geneva, to close windows.
The mouse is not needed to launch programs from groups. Hit Tab and then
cursor over to the app's alias, or type the first letters of the name. When
the appropriate icon or name is highlighted, hit Return.
Gerry,
Your experience is the same as mine. I saw Dan hit macro keys to load
different desktops at the CAF show, so I'm sure he's doing it properly. :-)
But the technique has been escaping me, too. (The method that worked in Neo
3.x isn't working here.)
Chuck,
Try setitng up groups that are in text mode, using small text. I have some
group windows on the ST that are quite small and very easy to get at.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 75 Wed Aug 31, 1994
R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 02:46 PDT
Neo 4 is beautiful! Now my TT looks as good "just sitting there" as my wife's
clone ever was. Of course, the clone is blown away when it comes to actually
_using_ the computer...
One thing I've noticed... If I use "Change Item" to rename an Icon in a
group, I lose the icon associated with it. Am I missing something?
Buffalo Bob
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 76 Wed Aug 31, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 08:04 EDT
D. Hadland,
Odd about that 4_7_11 program; it's one of the ones my wife and I play on the
ST, and we've been running Geneva and Neo 4 on it for quite some time, without
a problem when playing that game.
From the other problems you report, I'd suspect an installation that went
crazy, or a conflict with something else that is running. I just helped
another user who had a lot of crashing -- all caused by his setup. He was
loading NeoDesk twice. This is not that hard to do if a boot manager AND the
"shell" line in GEM.CNF both run NeoDesk.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 77 Wed Aug 31, 1994
MIKE-ALLEN [NM~SysOp] at 15:22 EDT
in re: 4_7_11.prg.
I have found that this prg reacts strangely to various versions of GDOS. Runs
ok with Speedo 4.0, crashes with GDOS 1.1 or G+PLUS 1.5. Also seems to have
some conflicts with Warp9. I suspect that it is not as simple as GDOS
versions, but has to do with the mix of auto prgs and accs.
I've also found that with rapid movements of the mouse I can end up with a
back screen or the original palette.
If I run 4_7_11 before I use KandinskY, the palette in K will be all screwed
up.
Sometimes, depending upon what I've run before, when I use 4_7_11 the mouse
button acts strangely - as if I had done a press AND a release some time
later. The time varies.
4_7_11 works ok with Neo3 and Geneva, but the mouse button response is VERY
slow.
Conclusion: There are strangenesses with 4_7_11.
Mike Allen
ST HelpDesk~Sysop
Written: 11:03 AM Mountain Time
Wednesday, August 31, 1994
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 78 Wed Aug 31, 1994
L.TRAPANI [Lou @ ATP] at 20:39 EDT
Neo4 has pumped new life into my TT (just as Geneva did when I first got it).
Many thanks to Dan, Gribnif and the beta testers for making it what it is...
I have been busy redesigning many of my icons (I will upload a bunch soon). At
first I thought there was something wrong because the in the icon window in
the "edit-icon" mode would not let me save the icons as a NIC file, the option
was always greyed out. But then I realized that this is down automatically
when you return to NeoDesk's desktop and the NIC file is located in the
Neodesk4 folder. I was so used to Neo3 which saved its icons automatically in
a RSC file and you had to manually save them as a NIC file.
I have noticed a couple other quirks in the program. While editing icons,
after I was finished re-editing an icon, it will show up in the icon window
with some garbage right above it. This is not saved when you return to the
desktop (thankfully). Also sometimes I will have to re-do the icons mask a
couple times before it "takes."
On a rare occasion, I will lose some of the installed icons I have on my
desktop. If I reload the INF file, they will come back.
In the GROUPS, if change the name that shows up in the window for a certain
application, you will loose whatever custom icon you had assigned for that
file/program type.
The opaque name option does not seem to work for filenames at all. Regardless
if you have this option on or off, they are always opaque. I believe changing
the color of the font has no effect either.
Well these are just minor things compared to the big picture. I seriously
recommend NeoDesk 4 for everyone that may be considering it. Hey, if you own
an Atari 68K based computer, you should own NeoDesk 4 (and Geneva too).
-= Lou =-
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 79 Wed Aug 31, 1994
L.TRAPANI [Lou @ ATP] at 22:18 EDT
Okay... my mistake. My last message I mentioned that changing the font to
opaque or not had no effect one way or another, because it was always opaque.
I see now in the manual, it states that these settings will only effect the
window when it is in "Show as Text" and that the icons will always have an
opaque box around the text.
Sorry about that.
-= Lou =-
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 80 Wed Aug 31, 1994
B.DEWITT [Perfesser] at 21:01 MDT
I just received my copy of NeoDesk 4. So far, I have had trouble getting it to
work with my setup. First of all, should it work with a Falcon-X-Boot-NVDI-
Geneva combination? I haven't been able to get it to do so yet. I keep getting
an "Illegal AES call" (or something like that) and then go right to the
standard DeskTop. I've tried it just with X-Boot and NVDI (no Geneva) and it
gives me the same thing. Is there something that keeps NeoDesk from working
properly with X-Boot?
Th'Perfesser
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 81 Wed Aug 31, 1994
FAIRWEATHER [David] at 22:13 PDT
When I try and use SpeedoGdos fonts in my windows only the folder names are
displayed, filenames disappear. Also the line in the window that might say
"85 items in 98,090 bytes" disappears.
Also, according to the manual, the first 16 SpeedoGdos fonts will be
accessible for use. If you don't like that batch of 16 and have other fonts
installed, is there any way to reorder them so as to make other fonts
accessible?
Also I've found that in naming NPI files for the desktop, or in naming drive
icons for the desktop, if you're renaming them while Geneva is installed and
try to use spaces in the names, Geneva won't display anything after the
spaces.
But if I do my naming without Geneva being installed, save everything and
then reboot with Geneva, the names are displayed properly including spaces.
Even more drastic weirdness occurs if I try to use Geneva's Task Manager to
fiddle around with the size of window bars from within Neodesk 4, but I'll
save that for another message.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 82 Thu Sep 01, 1994
M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 07:03 EDT
Dan,
>I'm really surprised about the problem with SETMOUSE, but I'll try it
>and see if I can reproduce it.
Over in the GENEVA topic, Tom Carman suggested that he'd solved the
problem by moving the "shell" statement, contained in the GEM.CNF file, from
its location at the top of the file (as placed there by the INSTAALL program)
to somewhere after the "run" statements. I relocated my "shell" statement to
the bottom of the file right after the line where the "shell" statement is
commented out and now I'm having no trouble running SETMOUSE.PRG from my
GEM.CNF file. Go figure ;-).
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Al,
>Alt-Esc works in Neo 4 and in Geneva to back out of the current
>folder. I have the keypad "-" key assigned, via Geneva, to close
>windows.
>The mouse is not needed to launch programs from groups. Hit Tab and
>then cursor over to the app's alias, or type the first letters of the
>name. When the appropriate icon or name is highlighted, hit Return.
Thanks for the tips. I'll try them out.
... Mike Squire
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 83 Thu Sep 01, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 13:23 EDT
David,
Thanks for the bug report. I haven't had a problem with the NPI naking like
you've described, but this my be specific to certain hardware/software setups.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 84 Thu Sep 01, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 15:02 EDT
David F,
Version 4.11 or newer of Speedo GDOS is required. It sounds like you are
still using 4.10.
I tried reordering the EXTEND.SYS (with Speedo 5) and that did not change
anything. All you can really do is temporarily remove the unwanted fonts. It's
pretty easy to do with OUTLINE.ACC.
The same Speedo version comment goes for the renaming problem you are
having.
Perfesser,
The problem is definitely not XBoot or NVDI, but it might be that you have
mixed version 3.0x files with the new 4.00 files. Check the NEOLOAD.PRG in
your AUTO folder, the NEOCNTRL.ACC/RSC and all other files. They should have
dates from this year.
Lou,
It's beginning to sound like some bits of NeoDesk's memory are getting
trashed at random times (icon editor problems, disappearing icons, etc.) If
you can reproduce this sort of thing, you might want to start trying it
without DA's and other AUTO folder programs.
I'll see if I can reproduce the thing you mention about icons in groups. It
seems to me, I saw this happen in a very early beta, but I thought I fixed it.
The opaque option is only supposed to affect text in windows, not icons. I'm
considering having it work for icons in a future version.
Buffalo Bob,
Are you saying that if you use "Change Item" to rename an icon, then the
icon disappears? This should definitely not happen, and never has for me.
Or do you mean that if you use "Show Info" the link is broken? This is
definitely true, since that renames the physical copy and does not alter the
group reference. You need to drag the group icon to the trash and re-drag the
appropriate icon from a directory window back into the group.
D.Hadland,
1. This sounds a lot like the old problem with ICD's COPYFIX program. If you
are using it, I suggest you do not, since it causes problems like this and is
not needed with NeoDesk anyway.
2. If the grou pwas created or added to in text mode, then some of the
positions of the icons may not be correct. The best thing to do is to use the
"Snap to grid" function with the "sort" option on. This will rearrange all of
the icons in a format like a directory window.
3. Yes, this is definitely a problem.
4. It sounds to me like you may still be using the RSC file from NeoDesk 3.
Check the date on NEOCNTRL.RSC.
5. I'll try to find this program.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 85 Thu Sep 01, 1994
B.AEIN [B Man] at 18:58 EDT
Dan,
Where in line is my upgrade?
Thanks Bman
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 86 Thu Sep 01, 1994
FAIRWEATHER [David] at 22:55 PDT
Great, I knew there was a Version 5.0 SpeedoGdos available from Compo, but
this is the first I've ever heard of 4.11. How do I go about getting version
4.11? Is is a free upgrade from 4.10?
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 87 Fri Sep 02, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 14:50 EDT
David F,
4.11 was shipped with some Falcons, and I think it's what they are still
sending. You can try Atari, but they will probably just send you to Compo for
5.
Bman,
Yours came in so recently that it hasn't been entered into the computer yet.
I'm afraid I can't give you anything more definite than "within the next 2-3
weeks."
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 88 Fri Sep 02, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:08 EDT
Dan,
I was trying not to ask (really, I was) but, can you give me an idea of where
on the list my order stands?
Getting antsy,
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 89 Fri Sep 02, 1994
T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 21:09 MDT
Dan,
I am having problems running NeoDesk 4 as an accessory with the NEO Control
Panel or the NeoDesk Queue Accessory. I can run it without these or with the
XCONTROL.ACC instead, but when I try to run either of these NeoDesk
Accessories I get 8 Bombs and a message stating a Privilege Violation has
occurred.
I noticed on page 9 of the manual that it says the NEOPATH statement should be
configured to where the NEODESK.ACC is stored. I assume you mean where the
NEODESK.EXE is stored as this fits the context of your statement earlier in
the paragraph.
Should the NEOPATH statement have 'setenv' in front of it? My statement reads,
setenv NEOPATH=c:\neodesk4
I have also noticed a problem with the Icon Editor when launched from Neodesk
running in a window. When returning to the Desktop the program locks up with
the Mouse pointer flashing faintly.
As Mike Squire reported here yesterday, I too had a problem with getting
Neodesk to run as the Shell from the GEM.CNF file at first. I would get two
bombs just before the Desktop should have appeared. I noticed that if I
commented out the
'run C:\GENEVA\SETMOUSE\SETMOUSE.PRG' statement it would run fine,
so I tried reactivating SETMOUSE.PRG and moving my shell statement to just
after the run Setmouse statement and everything worked fine. You may want to
look into this.
Finally, I have noticed that when Neodesk is running in a window or as an
Accessory macros and key assignments will not work until a drive window is
opened. I believe I did read something about getting fixed in release 004 of
Geneva, however.
Thanks for a great program and for sticking with us in a tough market.
Tom Carman (The Sermonator)
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 90 Fri Sep 02, 1994
J.WILES1 [Jeff] at 22:17 CDT
Dan,
If my CD Rom wasn't an internal unit, I'd send it out to you right away. I
seem to be having problems with CDs that never occured before upgrading to
Neo4.
Tonight is the first night that I have used my CD Rom since upgrading to Neo4
last week. I am experiencing the same problem Al mentioned, copying folders
from CD to HD, which BTW was also a problem with Neo 3.04. That problem isn't
so bad as you can work around it, though it is an inconvience.
The other problem that I am having with CD Rom is when I try to open certain
folders on the Gemini CD, I get anywhere from 3 to 8 bombs and the computer
locks up. Neo4 does not even intercept this crash. (For those of you who want
to try this and see if it is a REAL problem or just my setup, on the Gemini
CD:
1) open the FILES folder
2) open the MUSIC folder
3) open the MOD_ST folder
After the 3rd step, my computer locks up. Could someone let me know how this
works with their system?) Could it have something to do with so many files in
a folder as there are over 150 files in this folder. Also, in Neo 3.04, we had
to set how many files would show in a window. Do we not have to do this
anymore? I can't find where to configure this but have never gotten the old
message MORE FILES THAN ALLOCATED in the info portion of the window.
*Try this a few times as it worked OK once tonight but every other
time it locked me up.
I don't know where the problem lies but if I run Atari's desktop, I do not
have this problem. If I run Geneva without Neo4 and open files with Geneva's
file selector, I do not have this problem. If I run my normal setup,
Geneva.....ExtenDos..etc., with Neo4, I have problems when accessing the CD
from the desktop. For the sake of space, I didn't list my Auto's and Acc's but
if you want to see them, let me know.
Jeff
PS: GREAT programming though!
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 91 Fri Sep 02, 1994
K.BALLANTYNE [Kit] at 21:52 MDT
I ordered NEODESK 4 from a very reputable and nice Atari dealer many months
ago and was promised that they would ship it to me just as soon as they got it
in stock, so my question to you is, have you guys shipped it to the stores
yet? Does everyone else have it and my faith in my dealer is holding me back?
I am using Geneva and will probably go ape if I don't get my NEODESK 4 soon,
but I don't want to back out on my word to my dealer (in another state) that I
would buy it from him. I am using TerraDesk while I wait. Parts of it I love
and other things make me crazy. Having Geneva means I had to give up my TOS
2.06 desktop. When can we all expect shipments from our Atari dealers?
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 92 Sat Sep 03, 1994
J.WILSON103 [J_Dub] at 00:19 CDT
>I ordered NEODESK 4 from a very reputable and nice Atari dealer many months
>ago and was promised that they would ship it to me just as soon as they got
it
Me too, although only a short time ago..applies to me also.
>When can we all expect shipments from our Atari dealers?
I echo this question.
J_Dub
~~~~~
Saturday, September 3, 1994 12:06:40 am
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 93 Sat Sep 03, 1994
R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 02:48 PDT
Dan,
I reread my post as it went out and realized just how mis-stated it was.
Here's a play-by-play....
I create a group and copy files into the group. The files are represented by
really cool 16 color icons. But the file names are the usual 8.3 kinda thing.
I select CHANGE ITEM to identify the item by a cool 20 chaacter name, but
suffer the loss of the cool <custom> 16 color icon. Instead, I get the
standard "*.PRG" icon.
In what I thought would be a really creative way of fixing the problem, I
moved an icon to the desktop, renamed it (retaining the cool 16 color icon)
and _then_ moved it into the group...
Uh-uh. Reverts to the 8.3 filename. Shucks.
Buffalo Bob
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 94 Sat Sep 03, 1994
C.SAGGAU [CHUCK] at 10:14 PDT
It seems that everyone is receiving their NeoDesk 4. I ordered mine back in
May, how far are you through your backorders now? It would be nice to see
what everyone is so excited about...
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 95 Sat Sep 03, 1994
B.MENAGH at 13:17 EDT
I have installed Neo4 and am enjoying the benefits of the improvements. I
followed the instructions regarding usage with Geneva (I have v003). When I
try to boot Geneva so that Geneva runs Neo4, I get the message:
Version 3.04 of NEOLOAD.PRG
must be prersent in order for
this version of NEODESK.EXE
to run. I have directed Geneva to the NEODESK4 folder (SHELL C: ...) by
the GEM.CNF file. I believe I have done everything correct but obviously I
have missed something since other comments indicate other users are using
Geneva and Neo4 quite well. Could someone suggest what I do to solve this
difficulty? Thanks in advance for the help. Bill.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 96 Sat Sep 03, 1994
L.TRAPANI [Lou @ ATP] at 20:21 EDT
Buffalo Bob,
I understood you the first time around. But I guess that is because I was
disappointed by the very same thing (loosing the custom icons in groups when
you change the name as it appears in the group window).
I think Dan knows of it now.
-= Lou =-
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 97 Sat Sep 03, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:55 EDT
Kit -
I know it's hard to wait, I'm terrible at it. Nevertheless, they've just
recently started shipping Neo4, and to answer one of your questions... no, not
everyone else has it already. (I don't!)
I know it _is_ shipping, and I'm sure Dan and the other Grib's are doing the
very best they can.
Hey, if I can handle the wait (just), anyone should be able to! <G>
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 98 Sat Sep 03, 1994
J.WILES1 [Jeff] at 21:01 CDT
Dan,
Forget what I said about system lock ups when accessing folders on the Gemini
CD Rom. I tried again this morning and tonight and have had no problems at
all. Apparently I had something screwy in my system last night. Cold booting
must not have been clearing out the memory as I constantly locked up my system
when accessing folders on the CD. But today, all is well. Go figure.
Jeff
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 99 Sun Sep 04, 1994
H.WOLFE1 [Harvey] at 00:26 EDT
Dan, I have trying out the demo of Neodesk4 and I now have a few questions and
requests.
1. Neodesk4 allows the use of lowercase shadow names. However, when
sorting, filenames starting with a lowercase letter are put at the end of the
directory. Wouldn't it be better if they were put after the related uppercase
letter.
2. When I do a search and create a search results group, there doesn't seem
to be any way to manipulate it, e.g. I create a group with shadows of all my
files with a BAK extension. However, it is then impossible to delete the
files. I can only delete their shadows. That's perfectly logical when I
create a regular group. However, search results groups would be far more
useful if I could then delete or move the files that the shadows are linked
to.
3. When searching, it would be convenient if I could select one, or even all
the drives, without having to select them on the desktop first, i.e.
frequently, it would be much more convenient if there was a separate dialog
box for selecting drives, including an option to select all drives examples of
this are in Diamond Edge and in Maxifile).
4. It was my impression that the Neodesk4 was going to allow windows to be
iconicized. If it does, I don't see any way of doing this in the demo.
5. As far as I can tell, if I rename a file in Neodesk, it's shadows aren't
aware of the change. I assume that the same thing happens if a file is moved.
Obviously, if I do it outside of Neodesk, I wouldn't expect Neodesk to know.
On the other hand, if I do it in Neodesk, I think that it would be much more
convenient if Neodesk would keep track of these changes. If that isn't
feasible, then could Neodesk at least pop up a dialogue box with an option to
call the file selector so that the file could be located. That would be far
more convenient than an alert box saying TOS error 33.
6. One of my programs is crashing under the Neodesk4 demo. While I don't
think that Neodesk has anything to do with it, I noticed that it will display
the registers after the crash. Is there any way to save this information to
disk as a text file?
Thank you,
Harvey Wolfe
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 100 Sat Sep 03, 1994
T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 22:53 MDT
B.MENAGH,
Make sure you have NEOLOAD.PRG in the Auto folder and that it is the version
that came with NEODESK4. Make sure that you do not have any other RSC files,
etc. left in the root directory. Also make sure that your NEWDESK.INF or
DESKTOP.INF file does not have a statement left in it telling the computer to
Autoload Neodesk3.
If you are using a boot manager make sure that it has not overwritten the
GEM.CNF file in your GENEVA folder or placed a GEM.CNF in the root directory.
By the way, if you used Geneva's install program to add the shell statement to
your GEM.CNF file it will have placed it very close to the top of the file.
If that is the case, once you get everything setup properly and try booting
you will get 2 bombs just before the desktop appears. The fix is to move the
shell statement to just after the `run c:\geneva\setmouse\setmouse.prg'
statement.
Hope this helps you track down the problem.
Tom Carman (The Sermonator)
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 101 Sun Sep 04, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:04 EDT
Jeff,
The problem with the Gemini CD is not caused by Neo 4 but by ExtenDOS. A
recent upgrade to ExtenDOS fixes this.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 102 Sun Sep 04, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:44 EDT
Bill,
Do you own a previous version of NeoDesk? Did you delete all the old NeoDesk
3.x (or 2.x) files, or save them in an archive so they were out of the way? If
you have an older NEOLOAD in your auto folder or somewhere else and it is
being run, you'll get that kind of message. Tom's advice is also very accurate
(thanks, Tom!); I've seen a lot of botched installations in which a boot
manager is interfering with the loading of Neo 4 (and of previous Neo
versions, too, of course). I made my own boot manager, and I'm much happer
with it than with any of the others. :-)
Jeff W.,
Check the ExtenDOS settings (or upgrade if you haven't). Others reported the
same kind of oddities with the Gemini disk, and had times when it worked fine
for no reason.
Harvey,
As my review of STree noted (GEnie Lamp, recent issue), a utility that
searches so competently AND lets you do copies, moves and so on can be very
handy. It would be great if Neo 4 had the feature you asked about in regard to
using the search window to move items or delete them, but at this time your
best bet is to use STree in conjunction with Neo 4. Basically, I see the
search function in Neo 4 as a way of creating groups, not a way of seeking and
destroying items. :-)
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 103 Sun Sep 04, 1994
D.HADLAND at 10:10 PDT
In response to my previous message I have some corrections and answers.
1. The snap to grid does not help in finding all graphic icons in the
group window. I get only 11 of 14 icons. I reduced the amount of
icons and still was short three icons.
2. I am not usinf copyfix from ICD, but I think I was Premature on
the problem of file copying over old files.
3. I stated I had problems with NEO Control Panel. My fault, I was
usinf the old one (Sorry).
4. I did increase size of the JAR.PRG in my auto folder to 15. This
seemed to help somewhat.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 104 Mon Sep 05, 1994
M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 19:49 EDT
Dan,
I am using both NeoDesk 4 and Geneva Release 3 and have noticed an
irritatiting problem when launching either QuickCIS or STraight FAX from a
NeoDesk Group window. The application program launches and works fine, but
the NeoDesk Group window overdraws the application's initial screen display.
At first, I though that if I changed a flag setting in Geneva, I could cure
the problem, but none of the flag settings that I tried to change helped. Do
you have any insight on how I could configure NeoDesk 4 (or Geneva) to fix
this problem?
... Mike Squire
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 105 Mon Sep 05, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:43 CDT
Mike --
>irritatiting problem when launching either QuickCIS or STraight FAX from a
>NeoDesk Group window. The application program launches and works fine, but
>the NeoDesk Group window overdraws the application's initial screen display.
I'm running QuickCis from a group window under both Neo4 and Geneva 003 and
don't have that problem. However, I'm running QuickCis as NOT Multitasking.
Maybe that'll make a difference. Don't have STraight FAX, so I can't comment
on that one.
~+~+~+~+~+
Dan --
I've been meaning to comment for a week: I'm really impressed at how much
faster Neo4 is able to switch the colors when you click on a previously
inactive window to activate it. Thanks for that.
Generally, I really and truly love Neo4. Some neat, neat programming.
Thanks.
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 106 Mon Sep 05, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 23:26 CDT
Just discovered something very interesting about icon editing for 4 color
icons.
As discussed previously, 2-color icons produce pixel junk when they're
converted into 4-color icons. However I noticed that, while the *DATA* is
hozed up, the mask does indeed translate.
Perhaps a clue for you, Dan.
Now I also discovered a way to create 4-color icons from existing 2-color
icons. It's kind of an involved process, but it does work.
First, clear the mask of your 2-color icon. Then use the DATA-->MASK feature
to directly copy the data to the mask. Use the COPY function to copy the 2-
color mask, change to 4-color, switch to MASK, and PASTE the copy. Now switch
to BOTH and just "trace" over the mask with whatever colors you want. When
you've successfully traced over the mask (which was really the data from 2-
color), use the BLUR function to blur the mask out. And Voila! You've just
created a 4-color icon from a 2-color icon... albeit the long way.
(Can you tell I'm bored on a Labor Day evening?)
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 107 Tue Sep 06, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 06:52 EDT
Mike,
Try using a macro to launch those two apps. I'll bet the overlap will go away.
al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 108 Tue Sep 06, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 19:00 EDT
Gerry,
Naw, I expect the mask to translate. It stays the same number of bitplanes
(1) and just gets copied. Thanks anyway, though.
Mike S,
I only have STFAX here, and I tried it but did not see anything unusual. Is
this group window the only one open? Can you give a better description of what
it looks like?
Al,
Take a look at my response "2." below. Filtering can be pretty darn
powerful.
Harvey,
1. Well, this was a matter of preference. I knew there was no way I could
possibly please everyone in this respect, but I didn't see the sense in making
something so trivial an option. So, I just opted for the approach which sorts
faster.
2. You can copy or move items in a group and have that effect the physical
file. Deletes don't work this way (a delete operation deletes the item from
the group but not the physical file) to avoid the possibility of accidentally
deleting something with the name "FUBAR.PRG" on it when the file it points to
is actually named "FOO.PRG". It's too easy to make mistakes. We had this same
debate back in the NeoDesk 1.0 days with files on the desktop.
You *can* do the equivalent thing to what you want by dragging all of the
items in a window to the trashcan and using a Filtered Delete. It will only
delete the matching items.
3. This is a matter of interface. One method is better for some
circumstances, and another is better for others. This is not likely to change,
since the way it is now is consistent with the desktop metaphor.
4. Windows cannot be iconized in the current version. It will probably be
added in the future.
5. Automatic reassigning of moved/renamed items is not likely to ever be
done, due to the complexity involved. Adding an item selector is something
that will probably be in a future version; it's been on my list for a while.
6. Saving the register dump to disk would not be reliable to do, just
because of the nature of system crashes. However, someone has already made the
suggestion to allow it to be printed, which I should be able to do.
Bill M,
Check the NEOLOAD.PRG in your AUTO folder. Is it the same size as the one in
your NEODESK4 folder?
Chuck,
Yours went out this afternoon.
Buffalo Bob,
Yup, that definitely seems to be a problem. I'll see if that can be fixed in
the next version.
Kit & J_Dub,
Your dealer is probably ordering from one of the distributors, and they are
going to be getting their shipments sent out *after* all of the other orders
we have, in about 1-2 weeks. We put a very large dent in the backorders this
long weekend, but there are still more to go. We had folks in there from
November of last year when we started shipping.
Jeff Wiles,
The number of files/folder is handled dynamically by NeoDesk 4. You don't
have to set it because it's unlimited. (OK, it might break after 32767 items,
I'd have to check <smile>.)
If you start getting the problems again, you might want to see if perhaps
you are reaching the 40-folder limit. I don't know how the drivers handle this
(or if they bypass it completely). Try pressing Shift-Esc to force a media
change between the steps in your list.
Tom C,
That's odd about the priveledge violation error. You might want to double-
check to be sure you don't have some of your version 3 files still getting
used. Checking the dates on NEOCNTRL.ACC and NEOQUEUE.ACC would be the best
way to tell. I do know that there definitely seems to be a bug when running it
as a DA when Geneva is not present, but I get the feeling that in your case it
is.
Yup, you're right about the NEOPATH sentence being wrong. It should look
like:
setenv NEOPATH=C:\NEODESK4
I'll take a look at the icon editor when using it in a window. I vaguely
recall seeing problems with this, but I thought I had fixed them some time
ago.
I'm still mystified about the SETMOUSE thing, but I'll see if I can
reproduce it.
Yes, the macros will work that way until Geneva 004 is out. (Don't ask, I'm
not sure when yet! We're still working on upgrades here.)
Matt,
Yours was one of the ones we just did. It's either going out today or
tomorrow.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 109 Tue Sep 06, 1994
B.MENAGH at 19:12 EDT
Thanks for the suggestions re getting Geneva to find the correct version of
NEOLOAD for NEO4. I thought I had already done that both through the
installation programs for GENEVA and NEO4 as well as checking the file sizes
manually and changing the SHELL command in the GEM.CNF fil;e. I will take
the suggestions and try again. Thanks again. Bill.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 110 Tue Sep 06, 1994
L.TRAPANI [Lou @ ATP] at 19:28 EDT
Gerry,
Yup, I had discovered the same thing, that is how I have been upgrading all my
2 color icons to 16 color icons.
Dan,
I believe this is a problem with icon colors when in 32k colors using the CDII
card. Is this a known bug or something. If I edit icons in that mode, my color
palette is messed up. Also, all my icons are using the proper colors I
assigned them in 32K. This problem seems to be only this color mode and so far
it seems to only effect icons (all other dialogs, programs, etc show the
proper color).
I still have an occasional problem of icons disappearing off my desktop. I
have 4 megs of TT RAM and the last time it happened, I checked my RAM, and I
had 2.5 Megs free in TT RAM (running Neo in TT RAM), so I am not sure why this
happens. I can restore the icons easily enough if I reload my Neo INF file.
-= Lou =-
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 111 Tue Sep 06, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:26 EDT
Dan, Thanks, I needed that! I'll be checking the incomming! <G> /s
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 112 Tue Sep 06, 1994
J.TURCOTTE [JARL T.] at 21:40 MDT
I think I've found another problem. When a window is open showing files and I
hit tab I get the hi-lighting bar as was stated for groups, if I type a letter
the bar moves to the first file that starts with that letter.(this is not the
problem) If the file I try to find starts with a key I have set for a macro,
the macro runs. for example my macro to run aladin is lower case 'g' I open a
partition that has a path as follows "\PICTURES\GIFS", type "p" and the hi-
light bar go's to PICTURE,return opens this folder,type "g" and the aladin
macro exicutes. I love this method of launching Programs and I think it would
be nice if macros could be disabled when a file is hiilighted this way.
Jarl is out of here...
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 113 Tue Sep 06, 1994
T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 23:42 MDT
Dan,
I've checked the dates and sizes of all my Neodesk 4 files and there is no
problem there. The strange thing is that it works fine with XCONTROL.ACC.
It's just NEOCNTRL.ACC and NEOQUEUE.ACC that cause the problem.
Thanks for the confirmation on the NEOPATH statement. That is exactly what I
have been using.
Looking forward to Geneva 004. You've been a busy boy this last year. Thanks
for making Atari computing more fun and productive.
Tom Carman (The Sermonator)
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 114 Wed Sep 07, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 05:54 EDT
OK, Dan, I'll check that 32,767-file-limit issue for you. :-)
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 115 Wed Sep 07, 1994
F.GORON [Frank] at 21:43 EDT
Dan,
If my ND4 isn't shipped yet, (g) I'd also like the binder version of the
manual.
thanks
Frank G.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 116 Wed Sep 07, 1994
L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 21:50 CDT
Dan,
Received Neo4 today. Thanks for your efforts. All I need to do is find the
time to finish reading the manual, and then doing an install. :^)
Lorne....
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 117 Wed Sep 07, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 22:24 CDT
Ok, now that I've got this icon editing bug (it only comes once in a blue
moon), I've got a few questions:
- My default icon file automatically saves as NEOICONS.NIC (right?) and I
can't save it as any other name. Other than copying the file and renaming it,
is there a way to save it as something else?
- My default icon file also contains all sorts of odd shapes and drawings (a
paperclip, the "icon" symbol, triangles, etc.) Are these necessary for the
proper cosmetic appearance of NeoDesk, or are they just "thought
starters/graphic elements"?
- Is there a way to save the "EDIT ICON" desktop (the one that appears after
selecting that option) so that my harddrive icons and open window are placed
where *I* want them? If so, I can't seem to find it.
I've gotta say: even in 4-color Medium Res, having color icons -- and icons
that change when selected -- is pretty darn cool.
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 118 Thu Sep 08, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 07:48 EDT
Jarl,
Do you mean you have macros that use unshifted keyboard keys? (Not alt-G or
something?) I'd stay away from macros like that. Use fkeys or alt-shift combos
whenever possible.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 119 Thu Sep 08, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 11:48 EDT
Gerry,
Yes, NeoDesk always uses NEOICONS.NIC for its icons. You can create another
NIC file at any time, though, by selecting the window menu entry with that
name. Then, you can copy icons to/from this window to your heart's desire.
The only reason your default icon file would have those unwanted shapes is
if you put them there. If you take a look at the NEOICONS.NIC that is on the
mater disk, you won't find any of those things. Generally, the icons in
NEOICONS.NIC should always have a valid template underneath them, otherwise
they get ignored and just take up space in the file.
Nope, the positions of the icons in the icon editor cannot be saved.
Frank,
Sorry, yours already went out.
Tom,
One thing that does seem to be a problem: do you have a Falcon? If so, then
(due to a system call that was supposed to work but doesn't) you may get some
spurious "Illegal AES Call" alerts when either NEOCNTRL or NEOQUEUE first run.
Maybe this is related to your problem.
Al,
Have you ever seen any problems with the color palette in 32K mode getting
messed up when editing icons like Lou has?
Lou,
I'm thinking that the color palette getting messed up may be a result of
TKR's 32K drivers. Try it again once you get the disk I just sent you.
I still don't have any idea about the icons disappearing.
Jarl,
You should re-assign your macros so that they use some combination of
Control, Shift, or Alternate.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 120 Thu Sep 08, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 18:39 EDT
*Hot* Damn!
"Saddle up the stove, Mother, I'm riding the range tonight!!!"
I just received Neo4 in the mail. Installed it without a hitch, but have
noticed a few things I'm not wild about. Not sure if it's my error, or not.
1) When I drag a file to the GEM trashcan, with confirm deletes on,
the dialog box doesn't show the name of the file being acted on
until _after_ you click OK, at which point it's too late to change
your mind.
2) I can find no way to get all my 3.04 Macro's into Neo4. This, is
maddening. Just running INF_LOAD did not bring in the Macro's.
3) As has been posted, and stated before, INF_LOAD.NPG did something
odd with the 3.04 .INF conversion. I reloaded many of my old
icons already, but some of the ones I had outlined to make 3D, now
show up reversed. (icon only, title bar is ok) I tried using the
DATA->MASK from within the Icon Editor, but it did nothing.
Is there something special I'm not doing? Will I need to actually
go in and redraw them pixel by pixel? It was easy to do in Neo3..
just select Mask or Data and assign the color. Change was
instantanious. That does not happen now. On my system, I must
physically change each pixel.
Well, that's it for the moment. Got to get back to reading the manual, and
playing around. Hope when I boot up in the morning, all my previous problems
(as posted) will be a thing of the past!
Thanks to Dan, Rick and all for an outstanding effort!
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 121 Thu Sep 08, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 19:46 EDT
Al,
You devil! Just saw all those ICONS you uploaded. That may make my problem
with the 3.04 -> 4.0 icon conversion moot.
Addendum to last post:
Re: Icon Editor...
Drat! I'm having a tough time putting into words what I'm trying to do. In
the editor, an area apears white. (ST High) It actually comes out as
transparent on the desktop. How can I add white lines in there? Selecting
the white color and redrawing/saving seems to have no effect. (unless I'm
changing black to white, then it shows white.)
Also, I can't seem to find in the manual what the last two items are in the
bar that let's us select Pixel, line, fill or ??
Other than that... I Love it!
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 122 Thu Sep 08, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:01 EDT
Gerry,
Here's my method of editing and creating icons. I copy NEOICONS.NIC to another
folder and edit it there. I do this because since it it no longer the system
icon file, I can save it every now and then and keep working on it. Then, when
I am through, I exit Neo 4 and copy the new icon file over to the Neo 4
directory, then rerun Neo 4. (Don't copy that system file while Neo 4 is
running; unexpected results may occur.)
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 123 Thu Sep 08, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 21:45 EDT
Dan,
No, I haven't seen any icon-editor problems like Lou has reported.
Matt,
The icon editor is much more powerful than the old one. You may have to shake
off the old habits (I was also a pro at the old one, but now I am a pyro at
this one). The cut & paste features are spectacular.
Masking will do what you want as far as the white areas, from what I discern
from your question, BTW.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 124 Thu Sep 08, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:37 CDT
Dan --
I don't mean to belabor this, but I'm not sure I understand:
> Yes, NeoDesk always uses NEOICONS.NIC for its icons. You can create
another
>NIC file at any time, though, by selecting the window menu entry with that
>name. Then, you can copy icons to/from this window to your heart's desire.
Don't know what "window menu entry with that name" means if I haven't yet
created the file with the new icons in it.
I.e. The only NIC file I have is NEODESK.NIC . Now I want to put some of the
default icons into a new file. How do I create the new file?
Thanks. Having a gas with this feature.
=_=-=-=-+-=-+-+-+-
Matt --
>transparent on the desktop. How can I add white lines in there? Selecting
>the white color and redrawing/saving seems to have no effect. (unless I'm
>changing black to white, then it shows white.)
That's because you need to have a MASK behind the white (which masks out the
color of the desktop. Select MASK and I'm sure you'll see what the problem is
instantly.
>Also, I can't seem to find in the manual what the last two items are in the
>bar that let's us select Pixel, line, fill or ??
The last box is (if I remember right) "fill the box with the selected color."
The mouse then lets you draw a box to be filled in. I'm not certain what the
"white" box is myself... COULD be "draw a box"
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 125 Thu Sep 08, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 23:56 EDT
Well, I did it again.
The hour or so I played with the Icon Editor wasn't enough I guess. Seems I
just realized if I put the Data in the window, select toggle, the last option
in the Pixel,Line,Fill,?,? row, and then draw the box around the entire
window... I get exactly what I need! All pixels are toggled in color. (2
color)
Hmmphh! Al, I guess your close association with Dan on Neo4 has rubbed off.
It's usually only after sending an urgent post to _you_ that I finally figure
out what I need to do. <G>
By the way - The Al's Buttons Icons you U/L'd are teriffic. Not for ST High
though! Sheesh, I gotta get a card. At least an AlberTT.
So, sorry all for perhaps being a bit too quick to seek help. I'm sure though
that if I hadn't, I'd _still_ be searching for a way to do it!
Thanks,
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 126 Thu Sep 08, 1994
R.MERIANO at 21:27 PDT
DAN, Thanks for the Great upgrade! I enjoy the new version of NeoDesk.
Robin Meriano
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 127 Thu Sep 08, 1994
T.CARMAN [Tom Carman] at 23:28 MDT
Dan,
Sorry, I don't have a Falcon (wouldn't mind one though) so that theory doesn't
fit. I have a Mega ST2 upgraded to 4 meg of ram, with TOS 2.06, a High
Density Drive conversion, Turbo 25 Accelerator board and ATSpeed C16 emulator.
I have both a monochrome and colour monitor, switched through a Monitor
Master, but I predominantly use the monochrome. That is my home system. At
the office I have a TT with 4 meg of ST RAM and a TT colour monitor.
I have tried stripping out other Auto-folder programs and Accessories to see
if they are the culprits, but to no avail.
I'll keep experimenting and until you find something. Thanks for the great
support Dan. I hope you know how much we all appreciate it.
By the way, Dan, I have also had problems with disappearing icons on occasion.
I haven't pinned it down yet, but I think it may be related to exiting certain
programs.
Tom Carman (The Sermonator)
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 128 Fri Sep 09, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:40 EDT
Oh my goodness... He's back... again!
Yes folks, it's true. I'm back and I'm flusterated! <G>
The systems been behaving well since the Neo4 install, we'll see what it's
like in the morning, but for now I can't seem to get the recoverable trashcan
to work right.
I followed both the manual and the readme and did the .NPI thing. Each time I
put a file into it, I get a 3 bomb crash. After a reboot, the deleted file is
in the NeoTrashcan, but deleting it also causes a bomb-out.
Oh, also... sometimes when I exit the Icon Editor I lose some of my desktop
icons! Reloading the .INF file brings them right back, but it's sort of crazy
making. (and I'm only a hop, skip and a jump away from there anyway!)
Assistance requested please. (Soo, what else is new?!)
Thanks again,
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 129 Fri Sep 09, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 03:11 EDT
Addendum to Trashcan post:
I was wrong. The system _does_ give me a 3 bomb crash when I pass a file to
the Recoverable Trashcan, but after a reboot, when I open the trashcan and
delete the file from there, it does _not_ crash.
Still Lost in Larchmont...
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 130 Fri Sep 09, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 05:37 EDT
Next on the agenda....
Hello... what's this? Neo4 doesn't save different Icons for the different
resolutions anymore?
The ST High icons are much too big to be used in Low rez, but whatever I load
into Low shows up in Hi as well.
Am I missing something, or is this something your not planning to change?
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 131 Fri Sep 09, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 05:48 EDT
Gerry,
Select the icon editor from the Neo 4 menu. Open a drive and a folder. You'll
then see the menu item to create a NIC file. You can't create a NIC file
unless you have a window open to a drive's root directory or to a folder.
Matt,
Get a CDII. :-)
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 132 Fri Sep 09, 1994
D.ATKINSON3 [Damon] at 06:39 CDT
Al,
>OK, Dan, I'll check that 32,767-file-limit issue for you. :-)
Al, don't forget to put them in a folder nested 98 levels deep <G>
Damon
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 133 Fri Sep 09, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 12:18 EDT
Gerry,
What Al said. <smile>
Matt,
1. This is the way all other versions of NeoDesk, and Atari's desktop work.
The problem is that there's no good way to list 50 files if that's how many
you drag <smile>.
2. Macros from version 3 cannot be converted to version 4 format. it's just
too different.
3. The appearance of the icons themselves has nothing to do with INF_LOAD.
What you are most likely experiencing is the difference in the way the mask
gets used with the new type of icons. You probably have to edit your imported
icons slightly to get them to look right. You'll find that you can get a much
better effect with the separate selected appearance, compared to the old
method. Use a Fill operation to change the pixels to the color you want.
To make a white area, draw a mask pixel (x). Page 123, just below the middle
of the page, the paragraph there describes the other drawing tools you were
asking about.
I've had one or two other people who have reported problems with the
recoverable trashcan, but of course I can't reproduce them. Is there just one
item in the 'can? Is it several folders deep, or does it do the same thing if
the file is in the root?
There are no longer independent icons for each resoution, they are now
broken up by number of colors. In general, most people will use the 2-color
icons in ST High, the 4-color ones in ST Medium, and the 16-color ones in ST
Low. If you want to get something more like what you describe, you can either
create 16-color icons for ST Low, or you can use a program like XBoot to
specify a different NEOICONS.NIC for the rez you are going into.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 134 Fri Sep 09, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 19:05 EDT
Argghhh!
---------- The next chapter...
Powered up about 10:30 this morning. Went all the way up to loading the Neo4
desktop, then said it could not locat .INF file, but used the default so I did
get to the NeoDesktop. I tossed the .INF file and created another, then shut
down.
As I only seem to have the problem after the machine has been down for at
least 5 hours I tried hard, and succeeded at keeping away form it until 3:30
pm. Power up... a two bomb crash and a message about _some_ Neodesk file I
was too apoplectic to read. A stab at the return key and I'm at G's NoDesk.
One reboot and all is fine. I powered down again for 20 minutes and as
expected, no problem at boot up.
It doesn't seem that this is a Neo4 problem, since it was also happening under
3.04. (sorry to bring it here!) Guess I'll see what the folks have to say in
the other areas tonight, and if nothing else comes up, I'll reinstall _both_ G
and Neo4 from scratch.
If that doesn't do it, it's back into duty for the old 2.05 chips, and these
2.06's go off to Toad for checking.
Hmm, a last minute thought. Could where NEOLOAD is located in the AUTO folder
cause a problem? Is it better if it's early or late?
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 135 Fri Sep 09, 1994
D.MCANDREW [Simulator] at 21:07 EDT
Goodness, Dan! (Got my ND4 two days ago and just came up for air! Gasp!)
However, I'm not quite speechless yet.... You know, if I were to dream a
little bit here, if ND4 had TCP/IP support and FTP and SLIP and and and....
Wait a minute, doesn't MWindows take up 4 - 6 Mbytes of HD space? And ND4
takes up around 0.5 Mb... good God what a comparison. Ain't no way I'm giving
up my Atari, btw, Dan just how regular do you want these upgrade payments,
hhhmmm? This is a subscription, right? :>) You deserve whatever Gates is
getting, call him & tell him I said so.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 136 Fri Sep 09, 1994
K.SPRINGER1 [FROZEN NORTH] at 20:15 PDT
Dan,
Just a note to let you know my Neo 4 made it safely to the bush today! <G>
Thanks very much.
Ken S.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 137 Sat Sep 10, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 00:45 EDT
Thanks for the info Dan,
I don't know... it seems the more I learn, the less I know.
-=-=-=-=- Al,
Have you been able to create a new macro in Neo4 to close all open windows,
that won't wind up with the 'desktop has changed' message? Will running a
Macro that gives that message after it's executed hurt anything?
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 138 Sat Sep 10, 1994
A.FASOLDT [Al Fasoldt] at 04:51 EDT
Damon,
Why stop at 98? :-)
Matt,
Neoload can go anywhere. It needs to run before the DAs initialize, which
means any place in the AUTO folder is fine.
You have a hardware problem.
Sim,
Dan is already making close to what Bill Gates is making. He gave me a ride in
his Lexus at the CAF show. His Rolls was in the shop getting the third
cellular phone installed.
Matt,
Yes, you can make a macro that closes all open windows. Open 7 windows, start
recording a macro, and press Ctl-W 7 times. End the macro.
It will close all open windows when it runs.
Al
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 139 Sat Sep 10, 1994
R.BEATTY3 [Buffalo Bob] at 02:30 PDT
Atari-ST RoundTable Category 17, Topic 4 Message 135 Fri Sep 09, 1994
D.MCANDREW [Simulator] at 21:07 EDT
Goodness, Dan! (Got my ND4 two days ago and just came up for air! Gasp!)
However, I'm not quite speechless yet.... You know, if I were to dream a
little bit here, if ND4 had TCP/IP support and FTP and SLIP and and and....
Simulator,
> You deserve whatever Gates is getting, call him & tell him I said so.
Terrific line, and so true. Gates may smile because he's filthy rich, but at
least Dan can sleep at night, knowing that he is providing a service and not a
curse...
Buffalo Bob
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 140 Sat Sep 10, 1994
F.GORON [Frank] at 13:03 EDT
Sorry gang, longish post ahead
Hi Dan,
I just got ND4 on Thursday & I'm having a great time. I've gotten about a
third through the manual so far but have been all over the prg. There's just
a few things however, a few bugs & comments:
Bugs:
- The window Cycle button doesn't work on the "oldest" open window
- After deleting a file with the Taskman acc, it asks a 2nd time to delete a
file, then deletes the TRASHCAN.ACC file itself.
- When doing a Show Info on an OPEN folder, I get 2 bombs when exiting with
"OK" but not when exiting with "CANCEL". But when I select a folder w/o
opening it & do a Show Info, no problem. Also no problem with a Show Info on
an open root directory.
- I think it was already mentioned here, but there's a problem converting
desk icons & colors from an older .INF file.
- Also mentioned was the Macro problem (the "the desktop has changed" thing).
In ND3 I had a macro that closed all windows (^W - 7 times). If there were
less than 7 windows open, no problem. But in ND4 if there is less than 7
windows open when I use that same macro I get that changed desktop message.
Is this the same problem?
Comments:
- In the icon editor, could you add the cycling thing to View & Draw like you
used on the Colors (2,4,16)?
- could you add Flip on x-axis &/or y-axis to go along with Rotate in the
icon editor?
- In the icon editor, could you change the Image Clear so it either clears
data only (most intuitive), or ALWAYS prompts for what to clear. Currently
when "DATA" is selected in the top right, Image Clear prompts you, while Mask
Clear clears the mask. But when "BOTH" is selected in the top right, Image
Clear clears everything while Mask Clear STILL clears the mask only (once
again, most intuitive). Or better yet, have 3 selections in the menu (and
keyboard hotkeys) - Data Clear, Menu Clear, and Icon Clear (clear all) and
forget the prompting for which to clear. That way it's always CLEAR (g) what
you're clearing. (so sorry)
- Could we have more than 2 extensions for an installed app? (4-6?)
- Could you add "lassoing" of Desktop notes? It would be handy when
translating things between resolutions & when changing font point size.
- Could you add saving icons to .RSC & IBI/IB3 formats?
- In the .INF files, for the dialog coordinates, can you add descriptive
words (format,copy,misc,snaptogrid,fileinfo,etc.) instead of "DIALOG" for
all? Or if not, could you just give us a list of the respective dialogs here
online?
- Can LF's be inserted in the .INF file between sections for easier editing?
- Is the .GRP file in ASCII format?
- Can you add "change one color in icon to another color" to the icon editor?
I can see Dan now, "<grumble>, <grumble>, the more I give these people the
more they want." Well Dan, if the stuff you gave us wasn't so da*n good, we
wouldn't want so much more of it! (gggggg)
Many thanks,
Frank Goron
Gawd, I hope that wasn't as bad as it looked when I ul'd it. I've been haveing
trouble uploading files & ASCII.
Sorry,
Frank
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 141 Sat Sep 10, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 13:37 EDT
Thanks to all of you here.
It is now painfully obvious that I have some sort of hardware problem. Hoping
to narrow it down quickly, I re-installed TOS 2.05 last night and after making
sure it booted properly, shut down.
Powered up this morning to the same 2 or 3 bomb crash... twice.
Replaced 2.06 and booted fine. Of course the machine was slightly warm by
then. Guess I'll shut down for a couple hours and try again.
Shucks! I _really_ don't want to have to send my CPU away to be looked at.
RATS!
Guess I'll take this out of the software topics now. <G>
Thanks again,
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 142 Sat Sep 10, 1994
F.GORON [Frank] at 14:09 EDT
Al,
Matt's looking for a macro that shuts down all 7 windows, BUT doesn't gag if
there's less than 7 windows open. I think this is related to that "desktop has
changed" problem.
Matt,
I've been having problems with bootups also. It's been going on sporadically
for many months. Sheldon Winick has been helping me with this & we believe it
has to do with the Syquest being connected to the SCSI port. Didn't you say
you had a Syquest? If so, try disconnecting it & see if the problems
disappear.
In my case, the problems were also worst when the TT was booted after being
off for an extended period. And when I eventually got past the bombing, it
would be fine for the rest of the session, despite warm,cold boots, turning
the TT off & on, autos & accs off OR on. This sounds similar to your
description of your problems.
When I disconnected the Syquest (which btw works flawlessly) the problem would
disappear. But the strange part was that when I reconnected the Syquest the
problem would reappear ONLY a couple days later.
Sheldon & I are trying any possibilities we can think of before I ship the TT
to him, because we slightly disagree as to which piece of hardware is the
culprit. Sheldon thinks it's the syquest, & I think it's the TT.
Good luck, Matt
Frank
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 143 Sat Sep 10, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 15:52 EDT
Al,
I tried exactly what you said before I posted, but after all the windows close
I get the dreaded 'this macro cannot be executed because the desktop has
changed' message.
I know it said in the doc's that this is a known bug but is most noticable
when loading .INF files. Do you think I'm doing something wrong (?!) or am I
just being bitten by the bug.
I'll presume you've done this successfully on your TT. Perhaps it's a MSTe
'thing'.
By the way... any ideas why the Recoverable Trashcan crashes the system (2
bombs) after a delete? Even one small ASCII file. Reboot and the file is in
the trashcan, and can be undeleted without incident.
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 144 Sat Sep 10, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 16:10 EDT
Frank -
Hmmm, your problem does sound like mine, and yes I do have a Syquest in the
chain. (external, via the SCSI pass thru in an external Supra drive)
The odd thing is that all was working together perfectly for 6 weeks, at which
point I installed TOS 2.06. Then the 'fun' began.
I just re-seated the chips again, and fiddled with the HD ribbon connector.
I'll shut down now and power up in a few hours. If the problem still remains,
I'll try removing the Syquest. (bummer!)
Thanks for the input, (Geez, I just love this place)
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 145 Sat Sep 10, 1994
J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 17:48 EDT
Frank,
>Matt's looking for a macro that shuts down all 7 windows, BUT doesn't
>gag if there's less than 7 windows open. I think this is related to
>that "desktop has changed" problem.
When I was using Neodesk 4 I used to have a macro recorded exactly in
the manner Al described and it worked fine no matter how many windows
I had opened when I played it back. ALT W would close all opened
windows. Are you saying that this is not working with Neodesk 4.
haven't received it yet.
John B.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 146 Sat Sep 10, 1994
LYRE at 17:49 EDT
Matt,
If I'm not mistaken, yes it does make a difference where NEOLOAD and GENEVA
are located in the boot-up process. While I am not currently using either
program regularly (insufficient memory), here is my system information and
AUTO folder contents. To the best of my knowledge these programs are all in
the "proper" place.
SYSINFO.TXT [SYSINFO.PRG] (C) 1994 David C. Troy
STraight FAX! System Information Thu Sep 08 18:12:34 1994
------------------------------------------------------------------
TOS and SYSTEM INFORMATION:
---------------------------
TOS Version: 2.06
TOS Country: USA
TOS Date: November 14, 1991
TOS Start Address: 0xe00000
GEMDOS Version: 0.20
AES Version: 3.20
Max # of Tasks: 1
GDOS Version: Not Installed
Machine Type: ST with a 68000 CPU and No FPU
Blitter: Installed and Enabled
Available ST RAM: 910238 bytes
Boot Drive: C
Installed Drives: ABCDEFGHIJ
Number of Floppies: 1
Screen Resolution: ST Medium 640 x 200 x 4 colors
Serial Ports: 1
AUTO FOLDER CONTENTS:
---------------------
[NOTE: These are in "No Sort" order I believe.]
Auto Path is C:\AUTO\
Filename Length Date Time Flags
SUPCLKRD.PRG 4312 08/23/89 22:48 m
FOLDR300.PRG 1024 03/01/92 00:02 m
JAR015.PRG 856 12/08/92 13:09 frum
DMIRROR.PRG 26700 01/11/94 14:30 frum
XBOOT.PRG 58098 01/25/94 13:17 fru
SERFX20.PRG 5658 12/15/92 11:29 m
STFAXMGR.PRX 6551 12/01/93 02:10 m
GENEVA.PRX 159743 12/31/93 15:43 frum
SPDGDOS.PRX 82875 03/13/93 02:05 f m
NEOLOAD.PRX 9714 08/05/94 10:53 frum
WARP9_ST.PRX 65156 09/16/93 10:51 f m
CODEKEYS.PRG 11284 03/01/92 00:39 m
SILKMOUS.PRG 3400 03/16/93 16:31 f m
G+PLUS.PRX 9462 03/04/92 22:15 m
HOTWIRE.PRG 115186 03/01/91 15:49 m
DATADIET.PRX 9742 03/01/92 00:28 f m
SCRDMP24.PRX 3748 10/18/88 22:50 m
f = Fast Load
r = Run In TT RAM
u = Use TT RAM for RAM Requests
m = Memory Protection
The above info obtained via SYSINFO2 by David Troy of TOAD Computers. (This
freeware file is available here in the library and gives more info than is
shown above.) Once again, thanks David.
Lyre
12:27 pm, September 10, 1994
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 147 Sat Sep 10, 1994
M.SQUIRE [Mike] at 22:11 EDT
Gerry,
>I'm running QuickCis from a group window under both Neo4 and Geneva
>003 and don't have that problem. However, I'm running QuickCis as NOT
>Multitasking. Maybe that'll make a difference. Don't have STraight
>FAX, so I can't comment on that one.
You must not be using QCMSG_II as your message reader in conjunction with
Quick CIS then. I tried to run Quick CIS in singletasking mode, but for some
reason, I was unable to use QCMSG_II when I did that. Thanks for the input
though.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Al,
>Try using a macro to launch those two apps. I'll bet the overlap will
>go away.
Thanks for the tip. I tried it out and as long as the group window is not
open when I run the macro, I seems to solve my problem.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Dan,
>I only have STFAX here, and I tried it but did not see anything
>unusual. Is this group window the only one open? Can you give a better
>description of what it looks like?
I created a pair of IMG files using a "Snapshot" desk accessory so that you'll
be able to see precisely what my screen looks like. I'm sending them to you
via GE Mail as a ZIPped file.
... Mike Squire
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 148 Sat Sep 10, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 22:42 EDT
John -
Yes, that's what I'm saying. I guess it's still working on Al's TT, so your
machines, with their '030 chips may be fine, but not on my unadorned MSTe. Oh
it _will_ close all windows on the desktop, but if fewer are open than the 7
used when creating the macro, it delivers the 'Macro cannot be exicuted
because the desktop has changed' message.
Of course, a click on the box in the dialob box and all is fine, it's just
annoying.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Thanks LYRE. How're you doing? <G>
Yes, according to Dan Wilga (I think) as long as Neoload runs after Geneva
it's OK. That's where I've got it.
I've been swayed by the folks here, and my experiences to believe that this is
not a software problem. I'm glad. (almost) It might be easier to fix if it
were (just get rid of the software) but I would hate to lose this great boone
to Atari computing!
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 149 Sun Sep 11, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:27 EDT
Well, it seems I have something _new_ to say here.
I now get a 2 bomb crash (bus error) when trying to call "Mark-Reply Old
Topics" in Aladdin, or selecting Topic from the bottom buttons when reading
offline. The same crash occurs when this is attempted from my normally fully
laden system, or from a fully clean GEM desktop. (So in this case I _know_
it's not Neo!) <G>
I bring it up here for two reasons. First, Neo4 (I think) caught it and gave
me the report I list below, and second, because I don't want to spend the $ to
write this while online in the Aladdin area. I got the crash info from
SYSINFO83 also, from the GEM desktop. If anyone wants to know them I'll post
them.
BTW - I can still access all other Aladdin functions without problems.
Listing from Neo4's report of the Aladdin crash:
A Bus Error 2 bombs
d0: 65737369
d1: 0000000
d2: 000002A3
d3: FFFFFC7C
d4: 00000000
d5: 00000000
d6: 00000000
d7: 00000000
a0: 6573736A
a1: 001F176A
a2: 0022E4C8
a3: 0022E38C
a4: 001FBF12
a5: 65737369
a6: 002E368 (due to the hour this might be 0022E368)
a7: 00003DDA
instr.: 4A18
sr: 0300 = {t:0 s:0 interupt:011 x:0 n:0 z:0 v:0 c:0}
pc: 001EFGD2
I hate being such a pain, but I hate not having my system work as it should
more. Prior to writing this post I tried restoring the Aladin folder from
previous backups. Same crash.
Any ideas? Just what do these numbers mean, anyway?
Thanks,
Matt
PS: I tried to do the 'space thing' here so GEnie wouldn't reformat the text.
I hope it worked. <G> MR
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 150 Sun Sep 11, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:44 EDT
One more thing... (guilty smirk)
While trying to figure out why I can't get the Trashcan.NPG to work without
bombing after even a single small file delete, I noticed in the manual it
points us to the NeoDesk Accessories and NeoDesk Programs section. I can't
find those sections anywhere!?
Thanks,
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 151 Sun Sep 11, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 05:01 EDT
Good morning all,
Remaining true to my compulsive side, I am still awake at this ungodly hour
trying to fix my Aladdin problem. I am pleased to say I have it working
again. I had to run Update the Topic list, but it's again working fine.
Also, I managed to get the Trashcan.NPG/NPI working. I had to set the
environment in the .NPI to PATH=c:,\i:\TRASH. This had it working with no
problems so I saved the config.
Of course, after a reboot it no longer works.?! The settings are still there.
Another thing, I have TrashcanP set not to confirm deletes now, but no matter
what I do, it still gives me the confirmation box prior to doing anything.
Hoo boy, guess I'll get some sleep now. I've had it.
(going) Loony in Larchmont,
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 152 Sun Sep 11, 1994
C.SAGGAU [CHUCK] at 07:59 PDT
Dan: Got it Friday. Looks great. I'll read the manual before I fill this
topic with questions.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 153 Sun Sep 11, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 11:54 CDT
Matt,
Boy am I a day late and a buck short - I didn't even know (or forgot) there
was Neo 4 topic.
I have gotten the Trashcan to work both ways, ACC and NPG.
I rec'd Neo4 last friday and without this topic managed to conquer the Icon
Editor and have even loaded some of my own icons for the TT's RSC file.
Dan,
I am in awe of my first NeoDesk. Now if only I can get my TT back up and
running I'll be a happy camper - I'm sure I have a lot to look for when I can
use my 15" NEC in color (G), be like Christmas.
Frank L
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 154 Sun Sep 11, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 12:45 CDT
Dan, Matt,
There is a conflict with the Trashcan intalled as a Neo Program using NeoDesk4
and Geneva.
When deleting a file to the Icon it will save, but, I will get two bombs and a
crash. Upon re-booting, and checking the Trashcan the file will be there and
is saved, so nothing is lost.
This happens on my Mega 4 with a 16Mhz clock with setting (switch) on 16 Mhz
and 8 Mhz. This does not occur when running Neo Desk 4 without Geneva.
This problem does not occur if Trashcan is used as an ACC.
Frank L
BTW - Matt, Sleep better, it does seem to be little conflict.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 155 Sun Sep 11, 1994
J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 14:17 EDT
Matt,
you sure are having a rough week. ;-)
Flat___
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 156 Sun Sep 11, 1994
F.GORON [Frank] at 15:13 EDT
See Flat,
Correct, it's not working properly. The macro DOES close all windows that are
open. But if there were less than 7 open, you get the "the desktop has
changed" message. There is some sort of problem with macros, and I believe
this is one of the ones that produces that problem.
Frank
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 157 Sun Sep 11, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 17:58 CDT
Anyone wanted to try,
I had problems with creating some Macros while running Neo 4 and Geneva and
getting the message 'Desktop has changed' (or something like that) and by
using Neo 4 without Geneva created some of the same macros and saved, then re-
booted with Geneva and the macros created without Geneva did indeed work
inside of Geneva. Mmmmm don't know why maybe some additional for Dan to use
for debugging or maybe someone can have the same benefits I did.
Frank L
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 158 Sun Sep 11, 1994
L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 20:36 CDT
Dan,
Is there any chance that a future version of Neo4 will allow one to select
from the entire list of loaded Speedo fonts? Since the list only shows the
first eight, I do not have an opportunity to load the mono-spaced font since
it is not in the list of available fonts presented by Neo4.
This is the first version of Neo that I have owned, and I find it to be a real
joy to use. Thanks much for a very fine product.
Lorne....
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 159 Sun Sep 11, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 22:26 CDT
Mike --
>You must not be using QCMSG_II as your message reader in conjunction with
>Quick CIS then. I tried to run Quick CIS in singletasking mode, but for
some
You're right. I picked up that program and then had to upgrade my QuickCIS
version. And, somehow, that new version changed some parameter on CIS, and
ever since then the program "hangs" instead of hanging up. So I never got
around to trying QuickMSG.
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 160 Mon Sep 12, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:50 EDT
Frank,
Glad to hear you got some macro's working.
The only one I have not been able to re-create so far is the 'close all
windows' one, and even creating that one in Neo4 (run without Geneva) didn't
allow me to escape the 'Desktop changed' message.
Other than that, and my current hardware problem, Neo4 is tops!
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 161 Mon Sep 12, 1994
GRIBNIF [Dan] at 17:06 EDT
Lorne,
It's actually the first 16 <smile>. I'm considering upping that limit in the
version I'm working on right now.
Frank L,
Re: your machine: I'm working on it... trying my best...
Trashcan: I just wish I could reproduce the problem here. I'm going to have
to try a few of our other machines.
Frank G,
o Window cycle: correct. It've already fixed it.
o Trashcan: That's an odd one. Are you using it as a DA or as an NPG?
o Folder info: You're right. I'll fix that.
o INF_LOAD has problems, yes.
o I'm going to try to fix the macros somewhat.
o I've been considering adding cycle to those other buttons, yes.
o Flip? I'll see if there is room in the menus.
o I think maybe 3 menu entries might be the best way to go. I'll think about
it.
o You can have more now just by adding another APPLIC line to your INF file,
with just the extensions changed. It's just not convenient to add this to the
dialog.
o It'd be kind of difficult to allow Notes to even be moved on the fly. Too
much code involved.
o I'm not likely to ever allow other formats to be saved, sorry.
o I mostly left out descriptions of what each DIALOG was to conserve space
in the INF file. I'll send you a list by private mail, so as not to clutter
this topic too much.
o You can insert all the blank lines you want in the INF files. I didn't do
it because I wanted to save space.
o GRP files are not in ASCII format, and the format is undocumented and
subject to change.
o I've been considering doing that, yes.
Simulator,
<smile> Say hello to Bill for me when you talk to him.
Matt R,
NEOLOAD generally doesn't care where it goes in the AUTO folder. The best
thing to do in a situation like this is always to remove everything but
NeoDesk and Geneva from your AUTO folder. Remove all of your DA's too. Then
see if you still have the same problems.
I'll check out the case of trying to close all open windows and see if that
gives the same message as other macros. Getting this message doesn't hurt
anything at all, it just cancels the macro.
A couple of people have mentioned problems with the trashcan crashing, but I
still can't get it to happen. I'm going to try a few other systems.
I think your crash in Aladdin might be something to do with Aladdin itself.
It's of course very difficult to tell for sure, but an educated guess is that
one of the files Aladdin uses may be damaged. I don't think this is releated
to your other problems.
Hm. You may be right about the NeoDesk DA's and Programs section being
absent. We're doing an update to the manual now, so I'll see if that needs to
be added.
The trashcan really doesn't care about any env vars, so I don't think that
editing them would have an effect.
Dan
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 162 Mon Sep 12, 1994
D.MCANDREW [Simulator] at 19:58 EDT
Okay. (What makes you think I don't? :) )
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 163 Mon Sep 12, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 20:41 CDT
Dan,
I know you are working on the machine problem - I'm a very 'laid back person
for the most part so (with all the getting things back together after Neo 4)
I'm not worried so don't you worry it will all work out in the wash. When I
get off here I'm going to try some more with the Trashcan thing maybe I can
try few more things.
Frank L
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 164 Mon Sep 12, 1994
T.WILKINSON1 [TomWilkinson] at 18:58 PDT
Dan, thank-you. I love Neo 4, and the program groups and extended file
names allowed within them are a fantastic addition. Some initial
problem areas I've seen are:
1. Running Neo4 in a window under Geneva has locked me up on many
occasions, particularly right after using desktop notes.
2. Using a macro of ^W shift <drive> shift <drive> to close the
current window and open the selected one doesn't work if there
is no open window on the desktop. This did work in Neo 3.x
3. Shift <drive> doesn't seem to work at all if Neo is running
in a window under Geneva. It just does nothing.
I'm not whining, just mentioning what I've found. There are obvious
workarounds to the above, with the exception of the lock-ups when
running in a window, which I would like to do.
This complements Geneva so well, I just think it's fantastic to get this
calibre of software when many other companies don't think it's worth
developing for ATARI. I wish you immense success, and I hope the other
users promote this software within their own communities and clubs, as
I will be doing as much as possible on the local bbs's here.
BTW, in regard to the problems I mentioned above, they are encountered
on a Falcon with Tos 4.04, running 14 megs of memory.
Best of luck
Tom W.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 165 Mon Sep 12, 1994
L.BUDNICK [Lorne] at 21:11 CDT
Dan,
That is great news, re:, your considering upping the number of Speedo fonts
limit. Keep us posted.
Thanks,
Lorne....
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 166 Mon Sep 12, 1994
J.LEMLEY [Jack] at 22:27 CDT
Dan,
Further update on disappearing icons. From the desktop I went to icon
edit and immediately back to desktop with no changes. I then selected Desktop
under settings to view new desktop pictures. I left the dialogue box on my
screen to go take care of other things. I came back and selected cancel
without viewing any pictures. I then pulled WW.PRG off of drive D to install
on desktop and saved config. Then I ran WW and upon exit of WW I had lost all
desktop prg icons except Word Writer! Hope this helps narrow down the problem.
BTW I tried reloading the INF file but the icon damage apparently was already
done before I saved config even though the icons were still on the screen
before running WW. I have now taken a Default.INF file and put in another
directory for safe keeping (I was getting real tired of reinstalling all those
desktop icons).
TT030, TOS 3.06, 4/4 megs memory, TT med res.
Auto folder in run order XBoot JAR10 Pinhead Geneva (release 003) Artsevnt
Silkmouse Outburst HSMODEM1 Nosystem NVDI Dmirror UIS III Neoload (Neo 4
version)
Resident ACCS in run order Cardfile (v4.xx i think) OBACC Taskman TTartist
Xcontrol (v1.31 or current)
Thanks
Jack
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 167 Tue Sep 13, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:27 EDT
Thanks again Dan,
Your right, of course, my Aladdin problem _was_ a bad file in the Aladdin
folder.
I hope you can reproduce the problem with Trashcan when run as an NPG. I
prefer to run it that way, though it wouldn't be awful if I had to resort to
using it as an .ACC.
I don't know if this will help track it down, but I've noticed that on my
system, when I drag a file to the TRASHCAN.ACC icon on the desktop, the drive
window is not updated. If I then try to undelete the same file, I get the
familiar 2 bomb crash. If, however, I use 'Force update' so the window
reflects the absence of the file, I can use the Undelete without incident.
(does this give you any clues?)
Still weeding out my hardware problem,
Matt
-=-=-=-=- ADDENDUM -=-=-
This evening I booted up (normal boot set incl. G and Neo4) with the Control
key depressed. Per the manual, this should boot the system as normal but load
no .ACC's. Instead, I saw a flash of the NeoDesk4 info screen, then went to
G's Nodesktop.
Have I missed something? Should booting while holding 'Control' cause Neo4
not to be loaded?
MR
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 168 Tue Sep 13, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 03:48 EDT
Well, I've got to tell you all that I'm having more trouble with my system
this week, than I've had in my 8 odd years using Atari computers. And it's
not over yet.
Now, it seems I can't boot into Low rez. No matter what I do, I keep getting
sent to the Med. rez. screen.
Sheesh, I can almost see why so many people leave the platform! Not quite,
but almost.
I select the Low Rez set up from my boot manager, as I did yesterday when it
worked properly, and I'm sent to the Med. rez screen. If I switch to Low rez
via the 'Set Video' option in Neo4, it changes without a hitch. It just won't
go there on it's own.
ARGGHHH! This week I've been on vacation. Some vacation, I've spent almost
all my time fussing with the system, or waiting for it to cool down, so I
could change something, and reboot!
It's like a monkey on my back. I'm really starting to hate it, but I can't
give it up! I'm a computer junkie.
Help, I've lost my composure and I can't get it back!
(tune in later for more of the continuing saga)
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 170 Tue Sep 13, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 04:57 PDT
Here are some more bugs to add to the NeoDesk-4 list...
The "Unload for execute" option does NOT work with "Install application" or
.NPI files. Only the "Default" option is valid. Selecting "Yes" or "No" will
cause NeoDesk to UNLOAD regardless.
The NeoDesk-4 desktop dissappears from the background when running some
multitasking programs that NeoDesk-3 worked fine with. This means I have to
task-switch back to NeoDesk, where as before I could just click on open
windows or icons in the background. Not sure if this is a bug or
intentional... with some programs this helps, with others it doesn't.
The Neo-4 Control panel "Blitter" icon doesn't work. Fortunately, it defaults
to on (which is what I want), but it stays selected when I click on it, and in
fact, the info line doesn't even appear for this icon (the others, however,
are fine). I would guess it's looking for hardware in the later (030)
machines, and gets confused if there's only a blitter?
Memory fragmentation is terrible under Neo-4! Neo-4 boots up with
fragmentation, while the same configuration of Neo-3 did not. Also, both the
"Help" and "Edit Icon" functions fragment memory with Geneva. I went back and
fourth between the icon editor and help several times while learning it and
ended up with SIXTEEN blocks! (This may be why some people are having icons
dissappear?) Even without Geneva, using the "Unload for execute" option and
running almost anything will result in fragmented memory after Neo-4 reloads.
(And, no, I'm not using "Unload" with Geneva...)
These tests were run on a Mega-4 and a 4MB 520STfm with TOS 1.4 with a "clean"
boot (no AUTO/ACC except JAR, NEOLOAD, and in the Geneva tests, GENEVA and the
Task Manager ACCessory). Neo-4 was set to stay resident under Geneva, and to
unload without it. The memory fragmentation is cumulative -- the more you use
the system, the more fragmented it becomes, until there isn't enought RAM to
run.
The fragmentation may be the cause of many odd problems people are having that
don't seem to be repeatable. If you don't do the things that cause it,
everything works fine. For instance, with Neo-4 set to stay resident (the way
it's used under Geneva) programs run and quit just fine. If you use the icon
editor repeatedly, however, you will shread your memory and eventually run
into problems. On the other hand, with Neo-4 set to unload, running anything
will fragment RAM, and every time you run another program it gets worse.
After several programs have been run and quit, there may not be enough
contiguous RAM left to even reload NeoDesk!
Oh, and as long as I'm bitching... I don't like the way the icon editor
repositions the desk icons to their default locations. Neo-3 left them
wherever they were on the desktop -- which is where I put them and want them!
Aloha, from the UnHappy Hacker! (Tim)
... Fast Technology Turbo25 inside!
... NeoDesk-4 outside (temporarily)
PS: What happened to "VDI" mode in the INF files settings -- is it automatic
now? (If it's in the manual, tell me where...)
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 171 Tue Sep 13, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 18:32 EDT
All -
I've really got to stop trying to work on my machine during the wee hours of
the morning.
I found the reason I was unable to boot into Low rez... mia culpa, mia maxima
culpa. I had forgotten that while I was searching for settings that might
have effected my power up problem, I had switched off Gevena's Misc. settings
to take video from Desktop/Newdesk.INF.
Geez, what a dolt! <G>
You know, I find it absolutely amazing. When I was affiliated with
Psychiatric hospitals, I could deal with self destructive or suicidal patients
easily. Never lost my 'cool'. But let my computer system exhibit some
problems, and I become an obsessed lunatic!
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 172 Tue Sep 13, 1994
J.BATES15 [JAB] at 18:33 EDT
Longish post warning!
Hi Dan,
Just got my NEO 4 today. There was no registration card in the package so I'm
guessing that since it was an upgrade, I don't have to send one in.
Now on to questions. I have managed to change the desktop fill pattern to a
solid color (purple) but whenever I reload NEO 4 I get the ugly green system
color and have to reload colors from the color set up CPX. NEOControl will
not save my choice of colors. All I want is a solid color of my choice on the
desktop when I start NeoDesk and on the NoDesktop of Geneva. Is that so
wrong? What do I have to do to make it happen? I'm off to start the process
with a "clean" system and see what happens.
Later,
JAB
OK, it is later and this is what I have found. On a Falcon030 using ICD Pro
ver. 6.2.3; Jar20.prg, Neoload.prg in the Auto folder; and NeoControl.Acc as
the only accessory; the standard Atari desktop is vibrant green. When I run
Neoload again, Neodesk.exe runs and my computer switches into the correct
colors for less than 1 second and then switches back to the default colors
when it draws the NeoDesktop. If I then change the colors with the NeoControl
acc and save the configuration, exit and reload, it goes back to the default
system colors. Oh, I am trying to run in 80 column, 16 color, double line off
mode on an NEC3D with the Atari VGA adapter. I had hoped that this would be
fixed in this version since I had reported the same results with NeoDesk 3.04
earlier this year. Any ideas Dan?
This won't stop me from using the program, but I will use it less often. I
don't need it as a shell under Geneva, but it will make some things easier to
do. Other than that it looks great, and has more features than I'll ever use.
Now to restore my system.
Oh yeah, I get an "Illegal AES function call" message when I boot with this
setup. When I had the printer queue installed too I got two "Illegal AES
function call" messages.
Later again,
Switched to Atari's HD driver ver. 6.05? and no change. It goes purple after
the info message and before the NeoDesktop but doesn't stay that way.
JAB
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 173 Tue Sep 13, 1994
F.GORON [Frank] at 19:30 EDT
Dan,
About the Trashcan deleting itself - Of course I can't reproduce it now
But I think it was as a DA when it happened. But now NPG works fine, but when
I undelete something with trashcan as a DA I bomb out. This is with a TT 4/4
mb of ram, 3.05 TOS & with NOTHING but ND4 and the Trashcan.acc loaded. I
turned off all the program flags in Trashcan, but still the same.
On the extensions for Installed Apps, I understand about the problems with
adding it in the dialog. But - (No Dan, I'm not giving up on this one so
easily <g> ) How about if you have ND4 accept >2 extensions from the INF if
found. And then instead of having to add a complete line to the INF we could
just add the extensions to existing installed apps. And just have the dialog
display the first two it finds in the INF.
Can't blame a guy for tryin'
Thanks
F Frank
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 174 Tue Sep 13, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 19:24 CDT
Matt,
I'm have a problem with Aladdin with NeoDesk4. How in the world do you find a
bad file in Aladdin? Sometimes when I am writting a message (offline) I will
get two bombs if I hit the 'Ret' key I get so many bombs I can't count 'em. I
had 3 desktop notes on the screen, so I have removed them and as of yet I have
not had any bombs, I'll have to stay 'cool' with this to see if it really
corrected the problem. BTW after I removed my notes I did try to see if the
Trashcan program would work with Neo/Geneva combinanation but with no avail.
Frank L
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 175 Tue Sep 13, 1994
J.LEMLEY [Jack] at 20:34 CDT
Happy Hacker,
You're right about the memory fragmentation! I just exited Aladdin
after reading your message and went in and out of icon edit (didn't try help)
with memwatch loaded and I got a new frag everytime. My largest block of TT
ram went down about 100k everytime. I have 4/4 megs on a TT. Yo Dan....
Help..........
Jack
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 176 Tue Sep 13, 1994
B.DEWITT [Perfesser] at 22:05 MDT
I have been frustrated in my attempts to use the NeoDesk Control Panel with
NeoDesk 4 and I hope to get some advice here about it. When I load NeoControl
along with NeoDesk 4, I consistently experience these annoying problems:
1. Prior to the NeoDesk introductory screen coming up, I get an alert box
that tells me that an "Illegal AES function Call" has been made. Hitting
Return gets me past this and into the NeoDesk 4 desktop, but I can't figure
out what causes this to happen.
2. Loading NeoControl and then trying to print from Atari Works causes a
message to appear that, in part, reads: "Invalid handle". The program then
hangs, forcing me to reboot.
Neither of these problems occur if I don't load NeoControl or if I use the
Atari Control panel. Any idea what's going on?
I am running NeoDesk 4 on a 4 meg Falcon with math co-processor and have the
following AUTO programs loaded in this order: 1. Datalite 2. Falcon8 3. Fpatch
4. Jar10 5. NVDI 6. Screen Blaster 7. SpeedoGDOS 8. Speaker Off 9. X Boot
My Accessories are: 1. Drivers 2. NeoControl 3. NVDI configuration 4. Outline
fonts
NeoLoad is loaded automatically by X Boot.
Also, does either NeoQueue or Spooler work to speed up Atari Works printer
output? I haven't noticed any difference, but maybe I'm doing something wrong
(wouldn't be the first time.....)
Any help would be appreciated.
Th'Perfesser
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 177 Wed Sep 14, 1994
J.BATES15 [JAB] at 00:44 EDT
Hi Dan,
What can I do to rid myself of the default icons in the Neoicon.nic file? I
have grown attached to my animated icons on the Falcon and would like to see
them on the desktop still. I was able to load them into the Neoicons.nic
(whatever) file but there doesn't seem to be an option for removing your
defaults to make way for my choices. Too much improving on a good thing if
you ask me.
Later,
JAB
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 178 Wed Sep 14, 1994
LYRE at 01:04 EDT
Dan,
Just a comment...
If the DIALOG info in the INF file might be of use to others, perhaps you
would consider uploading it instead. It would save you the hassle of having to
respond to multiple requests.
Lyre
12:28 am, September 14, 1994
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 179 Wed Sep 14, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 01:29 EDT
Frank L. -
Do you get the bombs as you are typing the reply, or when you try to save? Is
there disk activity at the time? (Hmm, did you say it's when you hit Return?)
Re: Finding a bad file in Aladdin...
Well, it's like this: My first line of attack is to watch at which point I
crash and try to figure which files are being worked with. Of course, if the
program won't boot at all, I first try a restore of ALAD.PRG from backup. (I
keep and Aladdin icon on my desktop, and there have been times when I double
click on it and it seems to start to load but all I get is a flicker in the
NeoDesktop and I'm back where I started.) THEN I run MEDIC from Diamond Edge
and check the disk for for errors. (view any lost clusters, or back up the
drive before fixing the disk if you don't want to loose anything!)
Most of the problems I've had have occurred after Aladdin is running. Like
bombing out when I try to Mark-Reply messages, either from the menu option or
by selecting Topic while reading a message off-line. (Odd, just selecting
Reply works fine, but of course if you want to post to an area you haven't
gotten any new messages in that won't work!)
Anyway, when I've determined it's a file, I will usually check file size
against my most recent backup, and check the files for content in an editor.
When I had the Mark-Reply problem I noticed that the ATARISTR.TOP and
ATARISTR.TMK files were different at their headers than the backup files.
(backups were made with PRG working properly) It didn't seem like much, the
first letter of the first word was missing. When I tried to add it with the
editor, it gave me the message that it would make the first line too long.
That's when I decided to just copy over from backup.
Besides the constant fragging of the HD that Aladdin does, I really haven't
had that many problems with it. More often than not, simply copying over a
backup copy of Alad.PRG fixes it. (By the way, I almost _always_ run Diamond
Edge after a session with Aladdin to check out how much the data has been
fragmented. Usually I optimize to remove frags too.)
Hmm, it never entered my mind that the Desktop Notes could be a problem. I
keep many on my mono desktop.
Shoot, I thought I had my 'first boot' problem licked last night, but NOOOO.
It was back again this morning. (First Boot... wasn't that a Stallone
movie???!!) <G>
If you've never looked at some of the Aladdin files in a text editor you
should try it. To a non-programmer (me) it's a wonder how the .PRG makes
sense of some of this stuff.
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 180 Wed Sep 14, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 01:43 CDT
Matt,
As I was typing a message to send (offline) it bombs (2), gives me a message
'illegal command hit any key' (or something like that), I hit the 'Ret' key
and bombs appear accross the screen. This does not happen all the time but
enough to make me gun shy.
My aladdin seems to boot ok and no problems (so far) while I'm online. Seems
as if the problems begin after I have been on aladdin, but a complete cold
boot doesn't seem to help much. Most of the time when this happens I was using
the GEN/NEO4 combination, but it has occured running with just Neo. Sometimes
just like you it happens while reading messages and once while I was using the
Mark/Reply as well as just a 'Reply' within the 'Messages'. Like you I also
run "EDGE" after any bombs after or during Aladdin. I did do a back up today
and optimized, also re-installed NeoDesk and Geneva (just pulling at straws),
however, I still have had no bombs since I removed the 'Notes' from my desktop
- waiting - waiting mmmmmm. I have loaded some of the files into 'EdHak',
your'e right, it's a wonder Aladdin runs at all (G). I suppose I'll have more
goodies awaiting when I get my TT fixed.
- In a nutshell sounds like my problem is very simular to yours. Thanks for
the fast reply.
Frank L
BTW - No disk activity and bombs while typing - I know my typing is not to
good any way but (G).
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 181 Wed Sep 14, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 02:56 EDT
JAB -
If I understand you correctly...
To change the default Neo4 icons... go into Edit Icons and click on the icon
'box' on the desktop. Then open the .NIC file that has the icons you want in
it. Drag the icon you want and drop it on top of the default icon you want it
to replace, and save when you exit the edit screen. Simple!
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 182 Wed Sep 14, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 02:01 PDT
JAB,
While it's true you can't delete the default icons, you can copy over them.
Load your icons into the icon editor -- drag them over the appropriate default
icon -- then delete the extra copy. Simple.
Jack,
Try messing with the "Take 100__ Kb at all times" option in the memory dialog.
I found a value of 256 solved most of my fragmentation problems (even when
unloading). The impression I got from the doc's is that this should only be
needed on TOS versions prior to 1.4, but this does not seem to be the case.
(Curiously, the option has a default of 100 Kb, but that won't even let Neo-4
load!) Oh well... still learning. So far, the results of using the 256 Kb
setting are promising, although a little strange...
Set "Take 256__ Kb at all times" and this is what happened:
No Geneva - Unload for execute ON
---------------------------------
Boot up: Only 1 block now (was 2 with "No limit")
Ran STeno: One frag (2 blocks), about 300K drop (?)
all subsequent runs okay -- still 2 blocks, but no additional fragging
(With "No limit" everything ran added more blocks until system crashed)
Tried "Help" and icon editor with no problems either.
With Geneva - Unload OFF
------------------------
Boot up: Only 1 block again -- no fragments
Ran several programs with no problems
Hit "Help" key: Main ST RAM dropped, and 2 blocks now
Ran icon editor: Main RAM back to original setting -- NO FRAGMENTS!
[insert "Twilight Zone" music here...]
Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
... Fast Technology Turbo25 inside!
... NeoDesk-4 (still) outside. *8^)
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 183 Wed Sep 14, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 09:41 EDT
Frank -
Did you say whether you were running Aladdin single or multi-tasking? I don't
know that it would make a difference but ???
One other thing I have found with Neo4, that didn't occur under past versions
is that some of the system sounds I have assigned via GEMSOUND get cut off and
a bit fuzzy just before their end. Odd.
Hope you get the TT back soon. At this point, I wish I had the $$$ for one.
(Or could find someone to buy what I've got, to lessen the outlay!)
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 184 Wed Sep 14, 1994
T.WILKINSON1 [TomWilkinson] at 06:54 PDT
J. Bates
Re: your problem eliminating the default icons. I just open the other
icon file, drag the icon I want overtop of the icon I want to
replace in the neoicon.nic file and it replaces it.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 185 Wed Sep 14, 1994
L.SMITH30 [LOUIS] at 16:15 EDT
Dan,
Neo4 has arrived on the Rock. Thanks Dan. One the known bugs according to
the Readme file is that you cannot save the Sort choice onto the Neodesk*.inf
file. Would it be possible to write it into the file with Steno or any other
text editor? If so please let me know the relevant line to change.
Well done,
,---_
/ `-_-----_
/ THE ROCK OF `-_ *
Louis / GIBRALTAR `-__|_
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 186 Wed Sep 14, 1994
J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:03 EDT
I received Neodesk 4 today.
How come no one has mentioned the little surprise included
in the manual? Gribnif bucks! cool. :-)
Thanks guys.
John B
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 187 Wed Sep 14, 1994
B.MENAGH at 19:07 EDT
I finally was able to get NEO4 to boot with Geneva. Thanks to those who
offered their suggestions. My problem was in using Superboot and not ensuring
the GEM.SYS file directed the computer to the proper location. Thanks
again.
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 188 Wed Sep 14, 1994
J.LEMLEY [Jack] at 18:11 CDT
Happy Hacker,
I tried changing the memory dialog stting per your suggestion. I set
it initially I think to 256k like you said. When I rebooted Geneva would load
then when it came time for neo to load (I have it set as a shell in Geneva I
got and error dialog per the following: This operation requires
more memory than is
permitted in the memory
dialog.
Proceed anyway?
Continue Cancel
Strangly enough I raised it all the way to "Take 500__KB at all times" in
stages and still got the error message. I went back to "no limit". Neo 4
appears to really soak up the memory. I get a 60k frag at boot time that never
goes away.
Where's Dan?
Jack
Aladdin lag will probably get me on my last question :-)
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 189 Wed Sep 14, 1994
F.LAWRENCE2 [FRANK] at 18:49 CDT
Matt,
I only use Aladdin as single tasking but did set for multitasking one time
testing two days ago and pulled the same trick out of the hat.
Using NeoDesk4 (no Geneva), no desktop notes, it did bomb me out of First Word
+ after being on for about 5 hours, soooo, I'm not even sure that wasn't just
a glitch. It also did bomb out once while I was typing a semi-long post in
Aladdin today. I'm now trying Teradesk as well as the regular desktop with no
crashes yet.
Frank L
BTW I stopped using GEMSOUND, I found that it was somewhat distracting, but
then again roosters crowing *******(G).
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 190 Wed Sep 14, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:46 EDT
Dan, Tim -
After reading Tim's post about changing the 'Take xxx Kb Memory' I did just
that. Because I had been up and running already, there was no use seeing if
that would effect my First Boot problem, so I created an 'OldNEO' folder and
copied the original NEO_INF.DAT file into it. Then I changed the Take Memory
settings and saved.
OK, now it got interesting. I move the original .DAT file from it's folder to
the clipboard, and move the new NEO_INF.DAT (with the Take Memory change) to
the OldNEO folder. (At this point two copies of the C drive window are open.)
I then drag the clipbaord icon containing the original .DAT file from the
clipboard to the NEODESK4 folder, and get a PATH NOT FOUND message! Click OK
and the file is in the directory.
HUH?
Later,
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 191 Wed Sep 14, 1994
DMJ [dmj] at 19:59 CDT
Re: Memory fragging
How much you worry about a memory fragment should be directly related to how
much memory you have. For example, on a 16M machine, there's no point in
worrying about a 50K frag (which I almost always get when I boot up). Even on
a 4M machine, 50K isn't too much of a big deal. It amounts to less than 2% of
your RAM.
I use NeoDesk set to "No Limit". Sometimes it causes frags, but for the most
part it seems to clean itself up reasonably well, even in the icon editor
(which I use a lot).
~dmj
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 192 Wed Sep 14, 1994
G.LEONE [Gerry] at 21:23 CDT
JAB --
>(whatever) file but there doesn't seem to be an option for removing your
>defaults to make way for my choices. Too much improving on a good thing if
Go into the icon editor, double click on one of your old icons, then use the
"COPY" function to copy it. Exit that icon and double click on one of the
default icons. Use the "CLEAR" option to clear it off the icon editing
screen, then use the "PASTE" option to paste down a copy of your "old" icon.
That will then replace it as the default. That *should* work.
+~+~+~+~+
Matt --
>It was back again this morning. (First Boot... wasn't that a Stallone
>movie???!!) <G>
I think you're getting it confused with "Das Boot." Or was it the "TOSeidon
Adventure"? :-)
-Gerry
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 193 Wed Sep 14, 1994
J.BATES15 [JAB] at 23:43 EDT
Matt and Tom_W,
OK, I was trying to reorder my icons which wouldn't work. Silly me, not
thinking to just copy over the defaults. Now my NeoDesktop looks just like my
Falcon desktop, progress is being made.
Dan,
After I reset my colors with the CPX and I run a program, when Neodesk reloads
it comes up in the right colors. It only seems to happen on startup.
Speaking of which, I have Neo set to launch from a function key off my desktop
and I always get a Neoload.prg must be run at least once message (or something
of that nature) so I only run it by clicking on it. Neoload is the last thing
in my Auto folder, is there anything it should run ahead of, or behind for
that matter? I am also seeing memory fragmentation when using the icon editor.
Later,
JAB
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 194 Thu Sep 15, 1994
J.BATES15 [JAB] at 01:10 EDT
Dan,
Sorry again. I could have sworn I changed my install Aplication and SAVED it
but I guess not. It was looking for the wrong copy of Neoload. More problems-
- I was able to run Aladdin fine but when I went to do an autopass everything
locked up. The terminal menu stayed highlighted and the mouse still moved but
nothing was happening, and I had to reboot.
Later,
JAB
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 195 Wed Sep 14, 1994
R.GARDNER2 [Gaitor] at 22:41 PDT
I just got my NeoDesk 4 upgrade last weekend and been checking it out and
reading the manual at every chance I get. I installed it on a Floppy Disk to
get the "FEEL" of before I install on my Hard Drive. Every thing that I have
checked out so far works as advertised except one. When I boot up in Medium
Resolution I can "SET VIDEO MODE" to Low and it will reboot in Low Resolution.
But when I try to "SET VIDEO MODE" from Low Resolution to Medium, NeoDesk
prompts me to insert my boot disk with my DESKTOP.INF on it, then says that it
has been modified, and asks if I want to reboot. When I click on "CONTINUE",
it reboots, but into Low Resolution not Medium like it was supposed to. I did
notice that the dialog window states that selecting "OK" for "SET VIDEO MODE"
will modify my NEWDESK.INF but since I am using TOS 1.4, I have a DESKTOP.INF,
not a NEWDESK.INF.
Is there some setting that I am not using to get NeoDesk to switch from Low
to Medium? It is only something of a curiosity, since on my HardDrive I use
XBOOT to load different NeoDesk 3 Desktops for different sets of programs in
different resolutions. I am wondering if this is a bug, or if there is
something wrong with my copy of NeoDesk 4.
Bob {Gaitor} Gardner
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 196 Thu Sep 15, 1994
M.RIVMAN1 [MATT] at 20:08 EDT
Gerry -
The TOSeidon Adventure... ya gotta love it! <G> Thanks for the laugh.
Matt
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 197 Thu Sep 15, 1994
F.GORON [Frank] at 21:38 EDT
Matt,
I'm not using Alladin at all. I'm using Flash II in Single-tasking.
Frank
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 198 Thu Sep 15, 1994
F.GORON [Frank] at 21:44 EDT
Matt & Frank L
Oops! I thought Matt was speaking to me about our bootup problems. Sorry
guys.
Frank G
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 199 Fri Sep 16, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 02:17 PDT
Matt, Frank,
Aladdin is pretty stable for me under Geneva/Neo-4, but frequently bombed on
exiting with just Neo-4. I've just tried a new setting in the memory dialog
and so far everything's working great. Hope it stays that way?
Now Diamond Edge is another story... trashed my hard drive so many times I
just gave up on it! (Nothing to do with Neo-4 BTW...)
Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
... Fast Technology Turbo25 inside!
PS: Can't see why DeskTop Notes would cause a problem?
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 200 Fri Sep 16, 1994
T.PATRICK5 [Happy Hacker] at 03:36 PDT
Gaitor,
I had the same thing happen. Works okay under Geneva (doesn't reboot to
change rez), but without it, I couldn't go up-rez either (will go from med to
low, but not back).
All,
After experimenting with various settings this is what I've found makes Neo-4
the most stable on my system...
NeoDesk-4 alone (No Geneva) --------------------------- I have found that Neo-
4 alone (no Geneva) will continuously fragment memory as you run programs if
set to "Unload for execute" and the "No limit" option in the memory dialog is
used. So, if you are running without Geneva you should turn OFF "Unload for
execute", or experiment with the "Take ____ Kb at all times" option in the
memory dialog. (Assuming Neo-4 releases that memory when it unloads --
otherwise it kind of defeats the purpose... I'll have to experiment some more
and let you know?)
NeoDesk-4 and Geneva -------------------- Since "Unload for execute" is
supposed to be turned OFF under Geneva, it's best to use the "No limit" option
in the memory dialog. The icon editor and help functions will both fragment
memory, but the frags are minimal and shouldn't be a problem unless you use
BOTH those functions a lot. Running programs works fine (no frags that aren't
caused by funky software).
Aloha, from the Happy Hacker! (Tim)
... Fast Technology Turbo25 inside!
------------
Category 17, Topic 4
Message 201 Fri Sep 16, 1994
J.BRENNER1 [See Flat] at 19:44 EDT
Tim,
Diamond Edge? In my case Diamond Edge hase saved my life on a few
occasions. Never....since it's release has it ever damaged anything
on my hard drive.
Still experimenting with Neodesk 4 when I have the time. I have not
formed any opinions that I wish to share yet.
John B.
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